Delete rescue from the game.

[Sebazy]

Only if we can bring back pre-nerf Amdapor Keep, with the bees that were so hard for people to manage to kill fast enough they'd use limit break on them

2.0 AK was such a good dungeon on so many different levels++

[Equitable_Remedy]

Rather than deleting rescue, they should add an aoe rescue for really dangerous situations

This is amazing.

Level 100 rescue pulls all allies within 30 yalms to the caster.

[VentVanitas]

This is amazing.

Level 100 rescue pulls all allies within 30 yalms to the caster.

Finally, PvP Salted Earth for Healers. Maybe then I could actually get people to stand in my goddamn bubbles.

[Tigore]

@WaxSw

Umm .... if the Sage class is soulless to you, what would you change to make it better? So far, you are shooting down a few ideas to suggest you like some current aspects. How about the idea of adding DPS buttons for the Addersgall resource? Would that help at least or do you think it would discourage some important buttons too much with competition of resources? Technically we already have a 2nd resource for DPSing with Addersting. Are there some more spells you would like to see use it? Do we need another resource for the class and why? Should the spells you want just have its own independent cooldown? Also for a bigger question, should we consider asking for melee style healers since all 4 of them now are ranged?

As for the healing kit, it does have slight differentiation at least. Haima and Panhaima act as multiple mini shields to be great against multiple hits. I am guessing you want this on the base shields too? The Kardia heals are comparable to the fairy, but it can have more control on who gets the off DPS heals. The fairy seems to pick anyone who is low on health if you are fine. Since this mechanic contributes quite a bit, it's why several players suggest the Soteria cooldown temporarily make it AoE instead of only buffing the single heals to an unnoticeable amount. The end result may mean that 1 Druochole or Ixochole on the DPS may not be needed with Dosis DPS lasers getting that heal instead with this suggested cooldown change. Which goes back to my thoughts if we need a couple DPS spells for Addersgall to proc that 7% mana regen with something that can always be used.

[WaxSw]

snip.

Will try to keep it short cause I could write some pages on how some aspects could change and some ideas that i've said in the past:

Personally for its dps, lean more into its unique aspects like addersting management, the augmentation of skills via eukrasia-like actions and phlegma-like attacks in terms of range, spitballing some ideas:

-A CD based eukrasia action (kinda like the pvp one) that open new combos depending on what actions you press (i.e eukrasia II->Eukrasian dosis II that gives a buff that changes dyskrasia into a new finisher and Eukrasia II->Eukrasian dyskrasia II that gives a buff that changes dosis into a new finisher) both combos could have different range one being ranged and the other having the same range as phlegma, give different effects (one could give a damage buff while the other could have more potency and higher kardia heal potency) and both could generate addersting

-Eukrasian dyskrasia (just copy miasma 2) and Eukrasian toxicon must happen, in the case of toxicon we could have a mini combo i.e eukrasian toxicon becomes the instant one but buffs the next toxicon used that could have a standard cast time, allowing the current niche of mobility while allowing some short of rotation of E!toxicon->toxicon->E!toxicon as well as some resource banking for burst windows

-They could introduce new ways and cooldowns to generate/use addersting, for example the idea of rhizomata generating addersting is good if we had some alternative uses of that addersting that is not "dps neutral instant cast" and if they want the sage to be generating/spending dps resources as a semi dps they could add traits like the old quickened aetherflow so that by using some actions you lower the cd of others (i.e you lower the cd of phlegma for every addersting used, phlegma lowers the cd of the addersting generators and the addersting generators lower the cd of the addersting spenders)

For the healing part I do agree that Haima and panhaima are good, in fact they are the most unique thing sage has to offer but they are not the rule, they are the exception, sadly addersgall is the bread and butter of sage and its a carbon copy of Sch cooldowns and changing this would be too big for something that is not called a rework but they could enhance the sage identity in different ways:

-The idea of a partywide kardia is good but this doesn't need to be a new action, they could change soteria like this "Grants 4 stacks of Soteria to all party members each stack healing every time a Kardion heal is activated, cure potency: 120" that way it would fulfill its current niche of extra single target sustain but also work as aoe heal

-If its the dps healer pneuma being the only heal that damages makes no sense and limits optimal use of Zoe, they could rebalance physis 2 and holos to work like pneuma (preferably those 2 being ground targeted attacks so they can be used in downtime) and give a bigger emphasis on Zoe, they could even recycle quickened aetherflow once again and make it so every addersgall used lowers the cd of Zoe and those heal/attacks

-Pepsis should be reworked, something on the line of "heals nearby party members with a potency of 100, if they were under the effect of the user's Eukrasian prognosis, Eukrasian Diagnosis, haimaton or panhaimaton restores an additional hp of (insert shield potency), if this effect happens aditionally reduces damage taken by 5% for 15s" would do wonders at all levels of play

-Something so kardia can be triggered during downtime, maybe an action that disables kardia for 10s but automatically heals every 2.5-3s with a 70-80% of the kardia potency

These are some (spitballed and probably unbalanced) ideas but the reason why I call it soulless is simply because it has no identity, they call it the dps healer but its dps side is identical to the other 3 and offers no significant differentiation nor its kit is deep enough to be granted that title and if you look at its healing side things are not bright either when the bulk of its healing is made in an almost exact way Sch does. This can go so far that in P8s, one of the most heal-demanding fights so far in EW only 20% of my total healing were those unique actions (+pneuma) that you mention, being the remaining 80% actions that are carbon copies of Sch's like kerachole, ixochole or physis

[Tigore]

From the looks of it, it looks like a couple filler combos with a 2 step Toxicon combo system being proposed. I am assuming the Dosis Dot will be dropped to allow for SCH differences? Or is it a combo bonus now? Right now, I am on my phone, so I may need to correct some things later on double checking the combos desired.

Dosis > E! Dosis > Modified Dyskrasia
Addersting is granted at the end
Repeat combo a 2nd time
E! Toxicon > Toxicon
Revert back to beginning

Aoe is similar except it uses this filler combo instead

Dyskrasia > E! Dyskrasia >Modified Dosis
Addersting is granted at the end as usual

The Phlegma would obviously be slotted in before each combo. Just focusing on the changes proposed.

If we are keeping the E! Prognosis Addersting generation or using Rhizomata, the combos could just be used once and then we go straight into the Toxicon combo.

For the Physis and Holos change, will it still retain the Hot and other effects they already have? Did you just want them to also damage the enemies within range too?

[WaxSw]

From the looks of it, it looks like a couple filler combos with a 2 step Toxicon combo system being proposed. I am assuming the Dosis Dot will be dropped to allow for SCH differences? Or is it a combo bonus now? Right now, I am on my phone, so I may need to correct some things later on double checking the combos desired.

Dosis > E! Dosis > Modified Dyskrasia
Addersting is granted at the end
Repeat combo a 2nd time
E! Toxicon > Toxicon
Revert back to beginning

Aoe is similar except it uses this filler combo instead

Dyskrasia > E! Dyskrasia >Modified Dosis
Addersting is granted at the end as usual

The Phlegma would obviously be slotted in before each combo. Just focusing on the changes proposed.

If we are keeping the E! Prognosis Addersting generation or using Rhizomata, the combos could just be used once and then we go straight into the Toxicon combo.

For the Physis and Holos change, will it still retain the Hot and other effects they already have? Did you just want them to also damage the enemies within range too?

No removal, I called Eukrasia like I could have called "new modification with greek name" the idea is that both could coexist, eukrasia would work the same as now and the "new mod with greek " would have its own cooldown (lets say 30-45s), the idea would be to have dosis and Eukrasian dosis as a filler, and the new "GREEK dosis, combo dyskrasia" and "GREEK dyskrasia, combo dosis" as different actions from their Eukrasian ones

So the flow would be E!Dosis->GREEK combo (dyskrasia->dosis for potency dosis->dyskrasia for dmg buff you can imagine them working like Rdm's finishers, changing already existing buttons into those actions) that you choose->get addersting->Addersting spender (Toxicon, E!Toxicon) and then phlegma as a way to deal more damage freely and accelerate the cooldowns of what generates addersting (Like the GREEK combo), the idea would be to have those systems feeding into each other so the player can accelerate/decelerate them at will and while they are at cooldown Sage would use dosis

For the Aoe the same would apply but E!Dyskrasia would be used instead of E!Dosis

And yes, the idea is that sage has to manage to not overcap resources, however E!prognosis is not used much in the majority of content and assuming a 45s cd on GREEK combos and 90 on rhizomata even with cd reductions the resource generation shoudnt be overwhelming (didn't want to dwelve to deep in CDS, charges and that for the sake of brevity)

And yes for the holos and physis the idea is to make them gcds that also deal damage without the need of a target so their healing affects can be modified by Zoe and can be used in downtime, in general the idea for what i think Sage should strive for in healing is that either
a) Is tied to addersgall or its cooldowns
b)Its a shield
c)Deal damage

[Tigore]

Ok. I was asking just to make sure we are on the same page. So a second Eukrasia is proposed to start the new cooldown combo. Should I use "C!" to represent this one? I will try to rewrite another priority list to make sure. I will not include the Holos or Physis temporarily, although Physis will likely be used first still to trigger higher healing like before.

Single Target or 2 Targets

E! Dosis
Toxicon > E! Toxicon (at 3 cap Addersting)
C! Dyskrasia > Modified Dosis
Phlegma
Toxicon > E! Toxicon
Dosis filler

AoE

E! Dyskrasia
Toxicon > E! Toxicon (at 3 cap Addersting)
C! Dosis > Modified Dyskrasia
Phlegma
Toxicon > E! Toxicon
E! Diagnosis on tank to proc Addersting
Dyskrasia filler

[RyuDragnier]

Only if we can bring back pre-nerf Amdapor Keep, with the bees that were so hard for people to manage to kill fast enough they'd use limit break on them

Pour one out for that hive, they were the greatest pug destroyers and made Demon Wall a fun fight.

[Renathras]

...

I mean, we could poll on it, but considering one of the biggest complaints against SCH from both surveys seems to be "we hate Energy Drain uses Aetherflow competing with AF heal/mitigation abilities we want to use but feel like we shouldn't", I don't think doing that with other Jobs (WHM, SGE) is a good idea, since it's something people don't like, not that they want more of. I also never accept the "killing faster is utility/mitigation" because you can't noticeably kill bosses faster. The average Extreme/Savage boss, hell, the average 4 man dungeon boss, doesn't die substantially quicker due to SCH Energy Drains. 300 Potency per minute for a 3 min or less fight (4 mans) is around 900 potency, or, what, 3-ish Broils, roughly? For trash packs, this argument makes a lot more sense, but for bosses, it really doesn't. So many people use it, but in absolute terms, it's borderline irrelevant since that much damage is comparable to a few crits and falls within an average run's white noise variation (Crits and DHits). No one is saving the day in any real way by using Energy Drain outside of cases your party BARELY meets Enrage, in which case we're arguing a different point (your DPSers aren't great) than your damage being utility/mitigation.

When no healing is needed, Lilies are still a movement tool. But as I noted, a shield, HoT, or mitigation spender would resolve that problem since those are always useful actions in almost all cases. There are VERY few cases where, at the very least, the main Tank isn't taking damage of any kind for over 15 seconds. Not saying NONE (Ex5), but in general, that's not happening (and even then, you can just move your spenders to when the damage IS happening)

Melee Healers won't work in FFXIV because of the way boss abilities target players. That encounter design mechanic would have to change first. Most mechanics are designed with 4 melee safe spots (for the 2 Tanks and 2 Melee the Devs balance 8 mans around) and 4 ranged safe spots (for the 2 Healers and 2 DPSers). Some Healer targeting mechanics require one or both Healers to move way from the boss (HydEx Chackrams, for example), though that's a bit more rare (they tend to like stack markers, which often require at least 1 Tank in the stack and so they try to make melee range safe for that). P5S toxic pit circles (not during Devour, the other times he uses it) are the same way where there are two close in and two far out. But the point is, they'd have to change the safe spot design system to allow for potentially "5 melee range Jobs" for that to work.

But you don't need to be melee to have a combo system. MCH has a 1-2-3 and is entirely at range. SGE already has laser guns, so is half-way there.

I didn't comment on AST because I don't play it, have never cared for it, never liked it, and don't like it's aesthetic either. So there's nothing at all about the Job I like, hence I very very VERY rarely play it. I only leveled it to have an idea what co-healers who are AST might bring to the party for when I do roulettes and PF. I defer to AST players for what they want. As I don't play it and don't like anything about it, I accept the Job isn't for me, nor do I request that it be one made to my liking, nor is it one of the Jobs I would like "kept the same" for my benefit since I don't even like it as it is.

I've said before Dissipation is a bad ability, but people were swearing by it and insisting it's a gigabrain optimization thing that SCH is entirely dependent on to be a Job at this point. /shrug I agree it shouldn't dismiss Eos (goes against SCH's class lore) and should affect oGCD healing actions.

Agreed on SGE. I think Toxicon having more consistent generation/being damage neutral (which would actually increase the skill ceiling since it would encourage stocking them for burst windows vs the "normal" players who use them whenever they feel like it and don't take preemptive actions to stock more), Rhizo adding one as well (making it a healing and/or damage CD, but not depending on resources fighting each other, per se), Plegma being 25y range (just a QOL "makes sense" thing), and AOE Kardia CDs (to really drive that SGE is trying to heal by using its damage spells) would make the Job perfect.

Honestly, WHM should have never had Stone, Water, or Air, and arguably never really HAD Water (a CD ability that you couldn't use as part of your rotation because of the KB that eventually had the damage removed wasn't really a "water spell") in the first place. It's not a Druid, even if the lore in FFXIV specifically is funky on that. Final Fantasy WHMs in general are not and never have been Druids. We really need a Geomancer or Druid Job (Healer or DPSer or both) to fill in that aesthetic niche for people that want it, but WHM ain't it.

In Savage sure. In extreme? Eh not really, it's not that BarbEX and RubiEX hit especially hard,

I think this is perspective, but at level, Barb absolutely hit like a truck. People even commented on it a lot at the time, and people in here were praising it for the much higher and more engaging (in their words) healing requirements. Ex5, not at all, but Ex4, definitely so.

Also, HydEx did a LOT of damage at level, so not sure what you mean there. ZodEx didn't if you had a good dorito.

That's my point, though (on the GCD heals); it can entirely be done this way without stressing "Little Timmy". They can fall back on GCD heals for the extra damage. High skilled players would try not to, but if the damage was consistent enough (a damage wave every 10 sec or so), it would force more GCD heal use in response since you don't have enough oGCDs to use that frequently and not run out at some point, which will necessitate GCD healing or VERY intelligent use of GCD hels. The point is, with consistent healing requirements (rather than massive spikes all at once then long downtime), healing GCD needs can be increased without stressing "Little Timmy" who would just solve the problem with "more Medica".

Not only did you have far less oGCD healing capability back then, but you also had to contend with your heals having a cast time across the board.

This, I think, is the answer.

I agree that Cleric is VERY unlikely to ever return.

I disagree that removal of oGCD or insta cast healing is a bridge that the Devs would be unwilling to cross. Indeed, I'd argue that's the crux of the healing game's problem right now. So no, not fair. I haven't seen anything from the Devs to indicate they would be unwilling to make such a rework. What they'd PROBABLY do (if they were to do it) would be design the Healing Jobs differently. For example, SGE has a high focus on oGCD heals right now while WHM is the most GCD heal (via Afflatus) Healer in the game.

Though I honestly don't think there's a solution to the 4 man problem (if it's even a problem) with the current mindset of the community. They'd need to be something you don't have to grind (since people would avoid them if there are faster/more efficient tome grinds - just like the speedrunning conversation arguing people would do this over a savings of a mere 2 minutes). That's why Criterion failed, since people saw no reason to do it once they had the rewards since it's just a more inefficient way of getting what they want.

Which has been caused by a side issue: Lack of damage from mobs.

If mobs would deal significantly more damage, it can deter a tank from pulling more, knowing that if he does it anyway, its a wipe. Sure, with proper coordination, then tank and healer might still find ways to w2w. But the moment this isnt default, it shows a lot better balance. And this is why having more packs is welcome: it makes the pulling part less static (as many tanks by default will pull 2 packs). Just imagine 5 packs where the 3rd and 4th are very hard hitting. The tank can decide to go for many patterns (1+2,3+4,5 or 1+2+3,4+5 or 1+2,3,4+5), and this freedom also creates variety. But this only works if the enemies do enough damage. Otherwise even if its 5 packs, they will all still be pulled at once. And if this works, gating isnt needed because the gating is already applied by the risk of wipes.

Agreed. The problem is, again, the community. If a Tank only goes for 1 pack at a time, then the DPS complain he isn't going fast enough while the Healer is OOM... "This is why we can't have nice things". In fact, that's why the Devs put in the walls in the first place, isn't it?

...

- SGE has a 40 sec GCD, a "first three are free" Toxicon use, and Pneuma every 2 mins that it can use. So its rotation is already distinct from the others. If Pneuma was on a 15 sec CD, that's essentially identical to what (many) people are asking for WHM to be. The idea of "the dps healer" has fallen totally flat and shouldn't be part of the argument. Not to mention SCH did it better anyway in SB/HW.

- Damage neutral Toxicon would increase the skill ceiling, not lower it. Low skill players would either not use it or blow it whenever, while high skilled players would know to stock 3 Adderstings (and ideally a Rhizomata) for burst windows to optimize damage. This would encourage being knowledgeable about their cds and tracking the party's burst windows, increasing the skill ceiling over what we have now. Remember: 4x Glare (Misery) or 3x Dosis (damage neutral Toxicon) in a Burst window is worth more than a single Glare/Dosis GCD in that spot during the burst window, meaning optimizing around that would actually increase the skill ceiling. Right now, using Toxicon in or out of the burst window does the same damage as using a Dosis instead, meaning the skill ceiling is lower with Toxicon being equal to Dosis. It wouldn't displace Dyskrasia based on what the falloff was tuned to. For example, if it did the 660 to the target but only 20% on other targets, this would make Dyskrasia the DPS gain on large packs of low health enemies. Likewise, if the Tank wasn't taking damage fast enough to generate Addersting quickly, you'd use Dyskrasia for the "filler" of the rotation, which would be no different than now.

- I don't think those "benefits" of Phlegma are sufficient. SGE players should know the range of their heals, they shouldn't need to be "coaxed" into range of using them. I've known since I picked up WHM in ARR I needed to mosey my happy lil' butt to the center-ish of the arena to use it if I wanted to hit most of the party. I didn't need a semi-melee range ability requiring that. I also can't say I've ever used Plegma as a range gauge/guide. Like...ever.

- I think the solution to the kit vs SCH is to change SCH. Between the two, it's extremely obvious (from all the surveys and various discussion threads) that people REALLY want SCH changed while people kind of want SGE to be more like it is now with minor changes around the periphery. The people have spoken, and they want SGE to be a damage juggling Job with oGCD healing that it weaves within its attacks to cover the party's needs. SCH already works differently by having its main healing resource be weighted against doing damage via ED. The best way to differentiate them would be to change SCH at this point.

The Job itself is fine as it is now, and has a lot of soul and heart. It just needs a few tweaks to get it to perfection.

(Wow, me defending the most damage focused of the Healing Jobs...we do live in interesting times.)

I do like your Soteria idea, though. That's more or less kind of what I've been thinking would be neat. Like Plenary Indulgence, just triggered by attacking instead of healing giving SGE a good dichotomy/foil against WHM. (Not sure about THE REST of what you proposed, but that part I like. Oh, and Eukrasia Dyskrasia - while the name makes me giggle, I've proposed the same thing.)