There is so much to do in this game that...

[Shinkuno]

Grinding for the sake of grinding isnt content. It's just rehashing content. Delubrum was interesting the first few times. It was no longer interesting after my fifth relic. I didnt say I was glad content got axed from the game, I said I'm glad when grinds get axed from the design philosophy. If exploratory zones can not exist without meaningless grinding then the conclusion we should draw from that is that it's just not good content but meaningless chores. You say the new deep dungeon is bad because it's just HoH copy pasted, that's what relics fundamentally achieve with everything they touch. If zones like bozja and eureka can not be distanced from relics and instead stand on their own feet as fun content to do then they are a failed concept.

This is a fundamental problem I have with most of the recent posts lamenting the lack of content: A lot of focus seems to go into demanding grinding content but very little thought is put into wanting that content to be fun on its own. Someone responded to me telling me that the current complainers are uninterested in content being fun on its own. I hope they are wrong.

Because content that lasts 5minutes will never be fun. You said it yourself, you had fun for the first few relics despite being a grind. If you want more, tough luck you grind more even if its not enjoyable anymore. We shouldnt remove grinds just so people can have all relics in a day then go back to afk

[TomsYoungerBro]

I dont have an issue with exploratory zones on principle but they seem very much linked to the idea of old school mmo grinding for the sake of it. I'm always glad when grinds like that get axed from the design philosophy.

Im not saying eureka or bozja were perfect (though i think bozja was pretty good), but at what point was any of this content required? The relic is completely unnecessary, and Bozja did not lock the player out of any non-bozja related content. You can simply not touch it and miss nothing. If you want the relic, do it. If not, dont! Simple.

I think this is the biggest issue with the game's design right now. It caters to those who want everything, but only their way. The most common reason ive seen on the forums for liking the recent relic step is that they are getting the relic simply by what they always do: Roulettes. They dont want to do content for the item. They just want it so they can show it off at limsa or the venues.

[Ath192]

Grinding for the sake of grinding isnt content. It's just rehashing content. Delubrum was interesting the first few times. It was no longer interesting after my fifth relic. I didnt say I was glad content got axed from the game, I said I'm glad when grinds get axed from the design philosophy. If exploratory zones can not exist without meaningless grinding then the conclusion we should draw from that is that it's just not good content but meaningless chores. You say the new deep dungeon is bad because it's just HoH copy pasted, that's what relics fundamentally achieve with everything they touch. If zones like bozja and eureka can not be distanced from relics and instead stand on their own feet as fun content to do then they are a failed concept.

This is a fundamental problem I have with most of the recent posts lamenting the lack of content: A lot of focus seems to go into demanding grinding content but very little thought is put into wanting that content to be fun on its own. Someone responded to me telling me that the current complainers are uninterested in content being fun on its own. I hope they are wrong.

We have a poster here called Gemina or something that had to make up their own grind because the game didn’t give her one. Not too long ago she posted that she finished it. To me this is irrefutable proof some people do consider it content.

And to me it’s pretty sad seeing people do that. Not because they are making their own fun but because the game should have content for them. Like the ancestry of MMOs is riddled with content like this so isn’t a bit plausible some of those players still enjoy that stuff?

I understand it’s not your thing. But it is content.

I am personally interested in content being fun on its own. But I have no idea if others would find my fun to be their fun. So it stands to reason to put out content of all types, including grinds to see if people do them or not.

The relic is irrelevant. People would do Eureka and Bozja for a nice coat or suit of armor. There does need to be cool rewards at the end though. If anything we’ve learned that from Criterion.

[Saraide]

Because content that lasts 5minutes will never be fun. You said it yourself, you had fun for the first few relics despite being a grind. If you want more, tough luck you grind more even if its not enjoyable anymore. We shouldnt remove grinds just so people can have all relics in a day then go back to afk

All the relics in a single day? They might be unrestricted but 63000 tomes isnt exactly nothing to grind either. If content is not enjoyable anymore but it's far from being done then it has vastly outstayed its welcome. No content can last forever. Boring players is not exactly a great thing to do as you surely agree. Running the same thing over and over again because the grind wants it is just that: boring the players.

Im not saying eureka or bozja were perfect (though i think bozja was pretty good), but at what point was any of this content required? The relic is completely unnecessary, and Bozja did not lock the player out of any non-bozja related content. You can simply not touch it and miss nothing. If you want the relic, do it. If not, dont! Simple.

I think this is the biggest issue with the game's design right now. It caters to those who want everything, but only their way. The most common reason ive seen on the forums for liking the recent relic step is that they are getting the relic simply by what they always do: Roulettes. They dont want to do content for the item. They just want it so they can show it off at limsa or the venues.

Relic steps arent any more content than doing roulettes. Like that one famous tweet said: parts of the community have gaslit themselves into believing 15 times void ark is content but 1.5k tomes isnt.

[TomsYoungerBro]

We have a poster here called Gemina or something that had to make up their own grind because the game didn’t give her one. Not too long ago she posted that she finished it. To me this is irrefutable proof some people do consider it content.

And to me it’s pretty sad seeing people do that. Not because they are making their own fun but because the game should have content for them. Like the ancestry of MMOs is riddled with content like this so isn’t a bit plausible some of those players still enjoy that stuff?

I understand it’s not your thing. But it is content.

I am personally interested in content being fun on its own. But I have no idea if others would find my fun to be their fun. So it stands to reason to put out content of all types, including grinds to see if people do them or not.

The relic is irrelevant. People would do Eureka and Bozja for a nice coat or suit of armor. There does need to be cool rewards at the end though. If anything we’ve learned that from Criterion.

To add to this point, there was a forum thread necro'd a little while back about the fishing log grind being too hard and tedious. If you check it out, ALOT of people went against the OP. The OP's argument was about this games philosophy and how the fishing log doesnt line up with that because its too grindy and hard. Many forum posters came to defend that grind.

The point here is that grinds can be good when they are in a vacuum. The game has done a very good job of not gating players out of content with a grind. Where the game design is flawed is removing grinds completely out of optional "in a vacuum" content.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Relic steps arent any more content than doing roulettes. Like that one famous tweet said: parts of the community have gaslit themselves into believing 15 times void ark is content but 1.5k tomes isnt.

Where did i say either was content? Its clear you didnt even read my post as i was talking about exploratory zone content which was the relic the past 2 expansions. Thank you for acting like a fool just like said twitter poster xD.

[Saraide]

Where did i say either was content? Its clear you didnt even read my post as i was talking about exploratory zone content which was the relic the past 2 expansions. Thank you for acting like a fool just like said twitter poster xD.

Fool? That tweeter hit the nail on the head with many forum posters. If you're not part of that group then good for you. If you dont consider the relics from bozja and eureka relic content either then I agree with you. I have said this from the very start, relics were always designed to be boring. Not sure why you replied to me then though. Do you think bozja and eureka can stand on their own feet without relics attached to them? I wonder if the popular opinion on them would still be the same or if people would lodge the same complains they have against criterion.

[Stormpeaks]

Fool? That tweeter hit the nail on the head with many forum posters. If you're not part of that group then good for you. If you dont consider the relics from bozja and eureka relic content either then I agree with you. I have said this from the very start, relics were always designed to be boring. Not sure why you replied to me then though. Do you think bozja and eureka can stand on their own feet without relics attached to them? I wonder if the popular opinion on them would still be the same or if people would lodge the same complains they have against criterion.

Are you forced to do the grind though ? I dont think you are. So why be "glad" when content that you dont like is axed ? So others dont get it even though they might like it ?

[Raven2014]

There are at least three times as many club listings across North America as there are parties for actual content. And each of those clubs has many times more people than the maximum party size. You simply do not understand the sheer magnitude of a difference there is.

Again, this argument only make sense IF you have reason to believe people can only be invested in one activity at a time. I know I'm a far more diverse player now than I was 10-15 years ago. Maybe that's exactly why I'm drawn to this game? I know for sure the me from my college days wouldn't like this game as much as the current me do now. I had said in the other thread I used to be one of those "don't touch me you filthy casual", but these days I realized being a raider doesn't stop me from having fun in casual content.

So you bullied your team member and I presume your friend for weeks over what they do on their own time. You’re so good natured
/sarcasm

So let's get this straight: you're going after me, who are in this thread repeatably advocate it's great people can enjoy different facet of a game, while ignore the actual people who actively look down or even openly hostile to the concept of social club itseft? You also somehow completely missed the context of my post was to show people who raid and people who do social content are not mutual exclusive. You essentially twisted a post that meant to be a defense of people doing clubs into one that bullying them?!?


Uh ... are you just THAT desperate? Like, feel free to come at me with all your disagreement as aggressive as you want. But this? This can't even be called an argument. There is no rationality or logic here, just your personal baggage showing, and it's petty.


FYI, I was probably the topic of jokes the most often because of my obsession with glam. But we all understood that it's only a joke if everyone, including the main subject find it fun. The reaction of the member in question was mostly "ohhhh you guys caught me, teehee". No one even cared about going into the detail. Or the fun police now extending their jurisdiction into joke among friends too!??

[TomsYoungerBro]

I have said this from the very start, relics were always designed to be boring.

Then dont do it .

Bozja definitely stood alone without the relic as it was a great 71-80 leveling zone back in shb and was required to eventually unlock DRS which has a mount alot of people want. Pretty sure eureka has one of the most sought out glamour sets in the game + the mount from BA. The relic was also more beneficial to farm outside of bozja aside from the required "unlock zadnor" objective....