what makes an MMO fell dead

[Atelier-Bagur]

I think part of the problem is being terrified of people being able to quickly get ENTRY LEVEL gear, which is just weird. Like the base tome gear - before you upgrade it - is 10 ilevels lower than the upgraded versions, which are equal (I think?) to the Savage versions. So why are we limited to 450 tomes per week which equates to roughly 1 piece of gear a week? What if you could buy a piece for 500 or 1000 Bicolor Gemstones? Considering how many FATEs that would be, this would hardly be game breaking.

To be honest, the weird part about that point with entry level gear is that we already have it.....with the current craftable gears that you can also further augment them, yet the raiders still act as if gearing other jobs for being able to do savage content is hard? Buddy, what you're actually complaining about here is not being able to obtain multiple BiS pieces for your roles and somehow acting as if its a requirement for raiding!?

Ok I get it, you DO need BiS for Ultimates and Criterion (I think?) and Im not trying to argue that they shouldnt ease up the loot lockout and acquirement for multiple pieces. But at the same time, I cant get behind of the common argument used for it is that its a required grind? Even though the relevancy for BiS is quite short compared to most games. Its all about being the top best in the current time that it somehow matters and to me thats just a sad mentality to have here imo. Especially since like I said, BiS's relevancy is often fleeting due to this game's consistent patch cycles so in perspective its almost pointless.

[Rilifane]

snip

I don't think you get it.
Did you ever actively tried to raid on alt classes in PF?
Because the way you talk about it sounds like you didn't and you're completely missing the point and the true issue here by trying to make it into a "you all just want to feel super strong, what a sad mentality". The issue isn't that we don't have any entry level gear - the issue is that 610 won't be enough to even join parties for long.

You will be able to join even parties for the last floor in 610/ "entry gear" for a few weeks tops.
But reaching the last floor within a few weeks in PF is already quite the feat in PF and unlikely to be done on your alts. But past these first few weeks the ilvl to join will increase fairly quickly. You'll see 610 for the 1st floor but 615-620 is common for the 2nd and 3rd and you'll rarely see anything below 620 for the last floor, even if it's just getting past the door boss. People filter by ilvl after a few weeks.
"But gear doesn't mean someone is skilled!" - no, but people prefer to have an idiot in good gear over having an idiot in bad gear. It's not rocket science. And 610 is really pushing it for 3rd/ 4th floor, you need to be more than "okay" to pull that off, especially when your entire group is around that ilvl.

Until the catch up patch that introduces alli raid and upgraded crafted gear, you are extremely limited when it comes to gearing alts and can't nearly gear them fast enough to keep up with the ilvl filter in PF.
You can make your own group and set ilvl lower or set it to a point you don't reach yourself. The first unfortunately attracts a lot of people that make clearing extremely difficult to downright impossible and the latter is a dick move.
Source? Experience with PF for 4 tiers (ShB 1-3 and EW 1).
In an ideal fairy world, everyone would happily welcome people with 610 into parties for the last boss and everyone would play well enough to pull it off. But we don't live in that fairy world, people set ilvl requirements (most of them are perfectly reasonable too, not talking about 625 for Carby here) and people can't be trusted to play well enough to get a p8s clear in 610. I wouldn't even trust myself to play well enough to get a p8s clear in 610 and I consider myself a fairly good player.

Then there's the issue with needing the gear for Ultimate and more than once they made class changes that either significantly affected balance with Ultimate release or there were details people couldn't know before and both can lead to having to switch classes. Like the buff limit in TOP making DNC and SGE a really bad choice purely because they spam a lot of fluff buffs on the entire group. If someone has to, for whatever reason, switch class shortly before Ultimate releases, they're screwed because they'll be miles behind the rest of the group and have no way of catching up quickly. Full upgraded crafted isn't enough here; I had people in Ultimates that were behind in ilvl and it's a pain to keep them alive through some mechanics or even impossible depending on the patterns.
There are times when someone is on their own for a bit and you need a bit of HP to make it through that mechanic. Vit pots are on a 4,5min cooldown and can't solve it all.

But even ignornig all the logical arguments for easing the restrictions and making the gearing progression more alt-friendly - what is so bad or "sad" about enjoying having good gear? Does it affect your enjoyment of the game? Should nobody enjoy temporary things (like good gear)? Is it a morale thing here that enjoying having good gear = bad? Should you not have something just because it isn't written in the TOS that you need it?
I'm not a shiny hunter, I care so little about gear that I volunteered to get my shinies last in our static. But if others enjoy it, why not?

[Atelier-Bagur]

I don't think you get it.
Did you ever actively tried to raid on alt classes in PF?
Because the way you talk about it sounds like you didn't and you're completely missing the point and the true issue here by trying to make it into a "you all just want to feel super strong, what a sad mentality". The issue isn't that we don't have any entry level gear - the issue is that 610 won't be enough to even join parties for long.

You will be able to join even parties for the last floor in 610/ "entry gear" for a few weeks tops.
But reaching the last floor within a few weeks in PF is already quite the feat in PF and unlikely to be done on your alts. But past these first few weeks the ilvl to join will increase fairly quickly. You'll see 610 for the 1st floor but 615-620 is common for the 2nd and 3rd and you'll rarely see anything below 620 for the last floor, even if it's just getting past the door boss. People filter by ilvl after a few weeks.
"But gear doesn't mean someone is skilled!" - no, but people prefer to have an idiot in good gear over having an idiot in bad gear. It's not rocket science. And 610 is really pushing it for 3rd/ 4th floor, you need to be more than "okay" to pull that off, especially when your entire group is around that ilvl.

And right by the first couple of sentences you've just proved my point. The issue here are parties. PARTIES. Aka groups of people whom restrict the player base to their high standards. This is the same kind of hardcore raiding mentality that people give a lot of flak towards the WoW community and it seems the same is done in FFXIV.

Now I realize we cant fault PFs that make groups like this because anyone can do whatever the hell they want; if they want to farm they want to farm, but its also a social problem that its mostly relegated towards the community if the mentality is centered around getting fast clears. And personally it seems like the playerbase wants the dev team to babysit them to solve this problem for them rather than the community deal with their own problems and thats what I mean its sad.

Its sad that the mentality funny enough are the playerbase gatekeeping themselves rather than the game itself, and honestly this is an issue thats difficult to tackle because like I said there's reason for both sides here.

[R041]

Its sad that the mentality funny enough are the playerbase gatekeeping themselves rather than the game itself

[AnotherPerson]

And right by the first couple of sentences you've just proved my point. The issue here are parties. PARTIES. Aka groups of people whom restrict the player base to their high standards. This is the same kind of hardcore raiding mentality that people give a lot of flak towards the WoW community and it seems the same is done in FFXIV.

Now I realize we cant fault PFs that make groups like this because anyone can do whatever the hell they want; if they want to farm they want to farm, but its also a social problem that its mostly relegated towards the community if the mentality is centered around getting fast clears. And personally it seems like the playerbase wants the dev team to babysit them to solve this problem for them rather than the community deal with their own problems and thats what I mean its sad.

Its sad that the mentality funny enough are the playerbase gatekeeping themselves rather than the game itself, and honestly this is an issue thats difficult to tackle because like I said there's reason for both sides here.

Hold on, let me see if I'm following the topic correctly..

->Devs make fights tougher in later fights of the raid tier
->Players compensate increased difficulty by increasing ILVL requirements to meet this challenge as a way to ease the difficulty of the fight requirement when the party works together to beat the boss
->Players ask the devs for more ways to obtain high ILVL gear to allow more players to join these increased ILVL requirements in PF for later fights of the same raid tier due to the difference in ILVL between their main job and alt jobs after a couple of weeks later
->Proceeds to blame players for having the gall to respond to increasing difficulty by increasing ILVL requirements and condemns them for asking for more gear, saying its the player's fault for increasing standards

???
Did I miss something with your logic? If people want more ways to acquire gear to respond to the higher difficulty challenges and you rebut them by saying it's the parties that are at fault for not wanting to do MIN ILVL fight in PF instead of the devs, it's no longer the players who have a toxic hardcore raider mentality, it's you.