Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Dahlinea]

1) Yes, you were. If you were coming up on a DWT and hadn't needed to use your Egi-Assaults for movement, you were forced to blow them now - AND if you were at 4 stacks of Further Ruin, to blow 1 of those first before each Egi-Assault to prevent overcapping on Further Ruin. You needed to use them since they were DPS gains and to get them ticking again while also refreshing to 4 stacks before DWT so that when you rolled into Bahamut you had 4 ready to go but didn't overcap on either Further Ruin (by using Egi-Assaults above 4 stacks) or on Egi-Assaults (by having them sit off CD). I'm not sure you played Old SMN, or if you did, that you remember it well/knew what you were doing if you genuinely believe this. Further, you HAD to go into DWT/FBT on strict timings. "Oh, there's a heavy movement phase in 25 seconds but I'm at the 1 min mark...guess I'm using FBT and all my instants right now anyway!" You absolutely had to use your instants during non-movement periods ALL THE TIME on Old SMN. And there was nothing wrong with that then, either. If the fight didn't demand you use them all for movement, it didn't. If your free movement DWT/FBT came up during low movement phases, well, they did and you had to use them. End of story.

2) Horse hockey. Not only are you dodging because you know your argument is wrong and you CAN'T defend it, now you're lying. I've not said New SMN is some well of depth. I've said New SMN is FINE. I've also said it has less depth and optimization (skill ceiling) than Old SMN. Pretty much everything I've said is either objectively true or is reasonably true. You won't engage on the points because you have no legs to stand on.

3) See 2. Also: This is an ad hominem fallacy.

4) What's clear is you didn't play or didn't know Old SMN at all: See (1). I gave actual EXAMPLES of how Old SMN works - something you've yet to do. I actually understood the Job, and how to maximize what it could pull out as well as the complete rotation cycle, something you've yet to demonstrate any knowledge of. And as I said, Old SMN was a great Job in terms of having a high level of flexibility. A position you hold, so telling me I'm wrong on the one thing I'm agreeing with you on seems very very odd. I'm not comparing their complexity - I've already said Old SMN was more complex - I'm comparing their functionality - an argument you're studiously avoiding because it doesn't fit your narrative. You keep trying to say depth and complexity, two things I haven't contested New SMN has far less of. FAR LESS of, not ZERO. It objectively has greater than zero, so you insisting it doesn't is you denying factual reality. It doesn't have as much as you want, and again, that's fine for you to say. It's fine for you to want more. But stop lying about it.

5) See (4)

6) Stop lying. New SMN is alright. It's not what you want. Just say this:

"New SMN is not what I want."

That's what you should be saying right now. Is that soooooo hard?

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1) Because it "just works" is what makes it fine, actually. Depth is not required for a Job to be fine. WAR has almost no depth, too, but is fine.

2) Wrong. Even the Balance has noted there are optimizations for the Job. There just aren't many. But you missed the point - it doesn't require theorycrafters just to figure out what it should be doing (base rotation). I didn't mention the words optimize or "improve the rotation".

3) SMN doesn't play at all like BLU, rofl! If it did, you wouldn't be complaining about it... Of all the whoppers you've said so far, that's probably the worst. Final Fantasy games RARELY have "summons on the field". FF3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, Tactics, 9, 15 all had Summons that appeared, fired off a huge attack, and then left. That's actually the norm for how Summons work in the series. The Demi-type summons that come in and stick around for a short time fighting alongside the Summoner, like FF 12, 13, and arguably 10, though 10 could be the one example oh persistent ones since they would stay around until KOed. "summons on field" is actually the single most uncommon form of Summons in all of Final Fantasy lore and history.

Again, all you're spouting off is hyperbole, added with a health dose of lying - both about what I'm arguing (I'm not arguing that New SMN is a bastion of complexity and depth, and never have; I've said it has more than ZERO, which is true, and have said it has less than Old SMN did, which is also true) and about your knowledge. That level of deception is ill suited to having a text argument where the other person can just point to the very words you quoted to show you're lying.

You need to lay off they hyperbole and sweeping false statements. Again, just say this:

"New SMN is not what I want."

That’s my last response to you. It’s quite clear you are dead set on accepting the braindead job no matter how bad it is from a LV90 job perspective and how bad the progress in the lower levels actually is, you see, the job as whole. But let me phrase this one more time with all the letters, maybe it goes through you, although I have no hopes for it: “It’s not fine for a job at max level to play like a job that mechanically works like the same job at LV70.” You literally have one more button to press and that’s what makes it different from it’s LV70 counterpart. This is not fine at all from the perspective of a job that would progress and get more skills as you level up. Coupled with the fact that other jobs are getting streamlined too, SMN being the more dramatic case, and how you see a lot of people complaining about this tendency, this is not fine at all.
Now on to your topics:
1) End of the story for you. It’s easy to say SMN used instacasts all the time, except you forgot to say that every instacast SMN used, if you did the opener right, was done to weave an oGCD that was available. There was Energy Drain at 30 secs mark, Fester, Tri-disaster. Aside from Phoenix that was a combo of instacasts, every single instacast of old SMN was to weave something. The last two Egi-assaults before that DWT that you claim you “have to burn” was used to weave between DWT and Deathflare, which was decoupled from Summon Bahamut, to get the last 2 stacks of Further Ruin and the proceed to summon Bahamut. And even during Bahamut, these 4 insta casts were used to weave oGCDs. There were no wasted opportunities with old SMN unlike this new one, that lacks basic oGCDs and flexibility in the usage of its spells to even feel like a LV90 job.
Also, yes, SMN benefitted from holding Bahamut in certain instances. An example of this is during Fragor Maximus in the fight with Eden Prime on Savage. When Eden Prime was in one corner casting his room wide AoE you generally were in a part of the rotation where you would use DWT, and it was better to hold Bahamut for the adds than using it there because usually the raid buffs would have come from CD.



2,3 and 4) The talk was always about depth of the job and never about functionality. You decided to compare that way on own to change the subject. And on that suject, old SMN was about thinking about the fight and carefully consider your hard casts and insta casts during 70%-80% of your rotation to not incur on instances of having to move and end up losing DPS using Ruin II. Current SMN has only 3 hard casts, that becomes 2 if you Swiftcast one, and on top of that you don’t have freedom with your spells nor oGCDs to fill the gaps and the result is seeing yourself casting insta casts during down time on various occasions. There's a very clear difference functionality here where one require more awareness of the player and the other is "just use the hightlighted skill".

6) Instead, you could just admit that you like the braindead job and want it to stay that way with no depth. Because that’s what it seems to me.
So I’ll say for the last time. New SMN has no depth for a LV90 job and has problems with level progression because of that and that IS NOT ALRIGHT. Case closed.

[Renathras]

You can't use a reworked job's level 70 gameplay as a frame of reference for anything, because the rework is specifically designed for level 90 play. You might as well be looking at level 10 gameplay in a new job with a starting level of 70. I know that some people here are oddly passionate about their Sastasha prog, but I personally don't care how a job is put together outside of max level. It only makes sense if you're looking at a job like BLM, where the job in question has been relatively untouched and you can get a feel of how older 'iterations' played as you progress through the levels.

The 'depth' of a job is largely a function of perception. You might think that a job lacks depth, but that could easily be a reflection of your own lack of knowledge on the subject. That's why players are more likely to think jobs that they've invested a lot of time into have more depth than the rest.

Exactly.

Most of these things are subjective - matters of individual perception. And individual tastes will vary. Some people love BLM, some are okay/meh on it, and some hate it with a passion. This is true of almost every Job in the game. Honestly, I can't think of a single Job that is universally praised by everyone. The only ones I can think of that are remotely close are maybe...RDM? Maybe WAR?

WAR isn't even universal, because some people think it's "braindead" (more hyperbole stupidity, funny how people latch onto a word like a magical talisman, thinking it somehow will make their arguments for them when all it is is an ad hominem fallacy...), and RDM isn't because people complain about its damage being too low. Mechanically, I think RDM (in terms of abilities and rotation) is PROBABLY the closest Job in the game to the playerbase NEAR universally thinking it's a good Job overall, and even then, you get some naysayers here, like...

That’s my last response to you.

< ...follows with more response >

It's like talking to a cultist or something.

"I think you should consider-"
"HERETIC!!!!"

RDM mechanically works the same as it does at level 70. The only things that happen after level 70 are you get Scorch at 80, Resolution at 90, and you get Reprise (which is a movement tool and not part of your standard rotation), Verthunder/Aero III which is a straight upgrade and doesn't alter your rotation, and Magick Barrier which is a 2 min oGCD and not part of your rotation and doesn't change how you play. RDM literally plays the same from level 70 (when you have Verflare at 68 and Verholy at 70) to level 90. The core rotation is all the same, you have Embolden at 58 and Manafication at 60, and your rotation of build 50/50 (slightly off balance) and use your melee combo finishing with the opposite polarity Holy/Flare you have at level 70. You even have Verraise, the crux of your party utility, at level 64. Everything higher than that, the rotation is identical.

You literally have NO MORE buttons to press (not counting Magick Barrier and Reprise, anyway), and merely press your Jolt button twice after Holy/Flare. THAT'S IT.

That took me all of 10 seconds to think of another Job after you said it's not fine for a Job at 90 to play the way it did at 70. What, you're going to say RDM is a bad Job too, now?

It's hardly the only one.

MCH has its entire core rotation effectively by level 45, latest 50 (when you get Ricochet). The only major change after that is Barrel Stabilizer at 66, as the other abilities are just "More Hotshots" (Air Anchor is a straight upgrade from it and Drill and Chainsaw are used the same way, with the only caveat being that Chainsaw is a higher priority for Reassemble if in AOE situations, which isn't relevant for single target fights anyway). Queen is a direct upgrade from Rook - to the point Queen takes its hotbar spots - so changes nothing in use there. WAR's is finished evolving around level 70 with Inner Release, but it has its core rotation MUUUCH earlier, and some might argue by 54 with Fell Cleave. GNB starts at 60 and has its rotation basically complete at 76 with Bloodfest (after that, all it gets is an upgrade to Danger Zone, and you use Double Down for your burst in place of a Burst Strike - the rotation itself is otherwise the same). The Healers have their core rotations done by level 30, if even that, with the only exception (ironic given how much people rag on it as the easy one) being WHM, which isn't done until level 74 when it gets Misery. NIN doesn't change much from 80 to 90, just getting a follow-up attack button after Raiton and the Bunshin button changing to a ranged AOE attack that you can hold for a bit but which doesn't significantly alter your rotation, either.

What does the vaunted bastion of high skill ceiling BLM get from 80 to 90? Well, Amplifier to give them a Polyglot stack, and Paradox which.......in practice just replaces a Fire/Ice when you swap elements. Oh, and they get a flashier Fire and Blizzard effect...uh...for AOE. Though to be fair to BLM, its rotation isn't in a more or less complete state until level 76, I guess? At level 70 you have Foul, which is what you replace by swapping it out for Xenoglossy at level 80 (so in effect, the rotation doesn't change, you just swap the button in that spot on your hotbar for single target fights). Once you have Umbral Soul at 76 (for downtime or recovery), you more or less have your finalized rotation, just you swap a button (Xenoglossy for Foul as your movement tool you try not to overcap resource on) and Paradox...actually takes the place of Fire/Blizzard 1 on your bar, so you actually don't even change the place your finger/thumb pushes on your hotbar. Not counting downtime/recovery, BLM's rotation is essentially complete at level 70 as well - though given BLM is BLM, I'm going with 76 on that one, but opinions may vary.

So BOTH of the other Casters more or less have their rotation complete by level 70ish, with BLM having one change at 76 and otherwise just button swaps, and RDM's is actually complete at level 70. WAR and MCH also are done around level 70 (if not earlier), GNB isn't far off at 76, which is also when BLM is donedone, and all the Healers other than WHM are done with their core rotation by level 50 if not well earlier, with WHM being the only exception owing to getting Misery at 74. NIN is done at 80, and PLD is done around 76 as well (you just gradually swap out Holy Spirits under Requiescat for Confetior, one at level 80 and then three more presses of the same button at 90).

At the most strict view possible, WAR, SCH, AST, SGE, MCH, and RDM all have their base rotation complete by level 70.

And the thing is: SMN actually DOES change between 70 and 90 since Elemental Mastery at level 86 actually DOES change your button presses. "It's just one button" yes, but it's one button that acts in different ways. Scorch and Resolution act the same way, Polyglot and Paradox act the same way. Crimson Cyclone, Mountain Buster, and Slipstream all have to be used in different ways. But if you want to say "that's just one button", then every one of the Jobs I mentioned above have their complete rotation no later than 76, and 6 of them (which is 1/3rd of the Jobs in the game) are done at level 70.

So it's not really that strange at all for Jobs to play the same at 90 as they do at 70, as around a third of the Jobs in the game besides SMN already do so.

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In short: That's not a very good argument you have there...

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Also, no, not every single instacast of Old SMN was used to weave something. A number of them were, and you had some choice if you wanted to do a double and change or triple before FBT depending on what the fight required, but no, they didn't all have set places in the rotation other than the one natural Bio refresh per 2 min cycle and the insta-casts that were part of Trances. Even within Bahamut, you could technically move the Ruin 4s around, though you generally didn't want to start with one (potential ghosting). Things were NOT that tight as you claim - if they were, Old SMN wouldn't have the flexibility - the "choice" - that you've been insisting all this time it had. It can't BOTH be so rigid every last GCD had a specific spot in the rotation and could not be moved...while ALSO being a flexible Job that offered players tons of choice. It cannot be both at the same time.

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2, 3, 4) No, you guys have been insisting the Job was not fine and required changes. I pointed out it did not. You tried to defend your position talking about depth. I noted that a Job does not need to have depth to be functional and viable and good in the context of the game. New SMN actually requires thinking in terms of when to use (or not use) Ifrit and, to a lesser extent, Garuda. That requires some preplanning and thinking ahead. "What is the boss going to do ~10-15 seconds from now? What is the next set of mechanics? Can I put Titan under burst for the higher DPS it gives, or do I need to hold it for an upcoming movement phase?" These are all choices and thinking about the fight and carefully consider your hard casts and insta casts. While it IS a smaller part of the rotation (~10-15 sec chunks of time), the reason I'm using your exact same words is because that's literally what you're doing on New SMN. New SMN is not "just use the highlighted skill". Again, that is your hyperbole. It ISN'T as complex as Old SMN...

But who is saying it is??

No one. You're arguing against a strawman no one is making.

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This I'm going to get a direct quote of:

6) Instead, you could just admit that you like the braindead job and want it to stay that way with no depth.

Why? That'd be a lie. I don't like "braindead" Jobs.

My contention is that New SMN isn't braindead. Why would I say I like a thing that I don't like and which New SMN isn't?

Also, it would be a lie to say I want it to say "with no depth". Again, my contention is that New SMN has depth. Why would I want it not to have what I'm arguing it has?

Because that’s what it seems to me.

That's because you're wrong.

So I’ll say for the last time. New SMN has no depth

So you're wrong again. It doesn't have a LOT of depth, but has SOME depth. This is like someone saying "That kiddie pool has no water in it" when it has 6 inches of water in it.

for a LV90 job and has problems with level progression because of that and that IS NOT ALRIGHT.

As noted above, it's no worse about this than around 1/3rd of the other Jobs in the game. So no, it's not "Case closed", it's you being wrong about something else.

It is, in fact, alright. If it's not, then you'd have to say 1/3rd of the Jobs in the game are also hopelessly broken and must be changed, including other Jobs that are functional and popular in the game.

Moreover, the game is not designed much for the leveling phase. Look at BLM. There are periods where your optimal rotation changes every few levels, and NONE OF THEM are a preview of your level 90 rotation, meaning you build all kinds of bad habits and bad muscle memory if you play "correctly". That's actually FAR WORSE than just having a slimmed down version of your 90 rotation that gradually fills in the gaps as you go.

Case closed.

Again, you can have your OPINION - that's fine. Where I draw the line is when you start saying it's a fact when you say things that...aren't factual. Or you use double-standards that you only apply to the specific targets of your ire and nothing else.

Opinions are fine.

Saying how you feel is fine.

How hard IS it to just say:

"I don't like New SMN since I feel it is too simple and doesn't have enough depth or as high of a skill ceiling as I prefer Jobs to have." ?

How hard is it to say JUST that?

No hyperbole, no stating opinion as facts, just stating your opinion on the matter without the personal attacks, without saying your opinion is a universal fact, and without attacking other posters for having differing opinions of their own?

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Frankly, the animosity by the anti-New SMN people for folks that actually like New SMN is...kinda weird. And unnecessarily aggressive.

[Nizzi]

What does the vaunted bastion of high skill ceiling BLM get from 80 to 90? Well, Amplifier to give them a Polyglot stack, and Paradox which.......in practice just replaces a Fire/Ice when you swap elements. Oh, and they get a flashier Fire and Blizzard effect...uh...for AOE. Though to be fair to BLM, its rotation isn't in a more or less complete state until level 76, I guess? At level 70 you have Foul, which is what you replace by swapping it out for Xenoglossy at level 80 (so in effect, the rotation doesn't change, you just swap the button in that spot on your hotbar for single target fights). Once you have Umbral Soul at 76 (for downtime or recovery), you more or less have your finalized rotation, just you swap a button (Xenoglossy for Foul as your movement tool you try not to overcap resource on) and Paradox...actually takes the place of Fire/Blizzard 1 on your bar, so you actually don't even change the place your finger/thumb pushes on your hotbar. Not counting downtime/recovery, BLM's rotation is essentially complete at level 70 as well - though given BLM is BLM, I'm going with 76 on that one, but opinions may vary.

Paradox doesn't "just replaces a Fire/Ice when you swap elements" because BLM is not using Blizzard I to begin with, before level 90 you are using a Xenoglossy or Thunder III there along with Blizzard IV so you can get two MP ticks during Umbral to get back to full MP. For all intents and purposes it's an entirely new button during your Umbral phase that replaces a filler Xeno/T3 allowing you to move them to other places where they're more needed.
You say "rotation doesn't change, you just swap the button" for Xenoglossy/Foul but Foul has a cast time until level 80, meaning it is never used at any point before as a movement tool, so yes, the usage of your Polyglots pre level 80 and 80+ is different and does change your rotation as there's now more considerations on where you place Polyglots rotationally with the addition of having 2, the ability to use them for movement or to weave oGCDs, and with it being your most powerful ST spell.

So no, BLM is not "essentially complete" at level 70, the job develops and meaningfully matures in such a way that what you have to do to perform on the job is very different at level 70 than it is at level 90; same with level 80 to level 90 as well.

Summoner is not so. Once you get Emerald Carbuncle at level 26, the job fails entirely to develop meaningfully and give you any different considerations as you go from level 26 to level 90. Calling it "braindead" is an apt choice of words, because it is. It has no considerations that the other jobs within its role has; it does not have to think about positioning or casting at all, and it does not have to think about how it uses its abilities in a meaningful way at all.
Holding Aetherflow for more Festers during the 2m burst is not depth. Using Garuda first so you can get Slipstream out if you have a buff heavy comp is not depth. Could Summoner become a job with depth? Sure, but it is not so now. As it stands, it is horrible for the caster role and is an active detriment by virtue of existing. There is no reason it should be doing similar or higher DPS to RDM when RDM has to actively work much harder in the current meta to get the most out of their job with how fight design has turned out this expansion, and SMN is literally just "LOL I SPAM 1 BUTTON AND WIN".

It's fine to like the new SMN, but call it what it is. New Summoner fans like it because it requires no effort and gives them similar or better results to jobs that actually have to put in effort.