Inevitable Job Simplifications?

[Connor]

I think people here have different definitions on what they mean when they say a job has 'depth', so really, the question I have is, what counts as 'depth'? What quantifies one job having more 'depth' than another?

There is also the flexibility, is that separate to 'depth' or is it a component of 'depth'?

Once this baseline has been established, a proper discussion can be had comparing different jobs because, at the moment, it is going nowhere.

It’s been going nowhere for the past 6 years lol. Yet people still ask for same things they asked for during previous expansions and never got (like BLM white mage, or wanting Scholar to become the Poison God of Plagues and Pestilence, remove all healing gcds and replace with oGCD, ‘skill ceilings’ that scale infinitely, etc ).

Also why is it so bad to like the new Summoner? It’s easy sure but in case people haven’t noticed that’s kind of the aim-of-the-game when it comes to ffxiv designs. Seems a little unfair to say ‘if you like new Summoner you’re just a brainless piece of shit who doesn’t deserve to play this game’. What about people who liked both?

[Mikey_R]

Also why is it so bad to like the new Summoner? It’s easy sure but in case people haven’t noticed that’s kind of the aim-of-the-game when it comes to ffxiv designs. Seems a little unfair to say ‘if you like new Summoner you’re just a brainless piece of shit who doesn’t deserve to play this game’. What about people who liked both?

Coincidentally, this is Renathras's whole point. People don't necessarily hate new summoner for what it is, but for what it took away. Meaning, if the game had both new AND old summoner, nooone would be complaining about new summoner.

[Connor]

Coincidentally, this is Renathras's whole point. People don't necessarily hate new summoner for what it is, but for what it took away. Meaning, if the game had both new AND old summoner, nooone would be complaining about new summoner.

Of course, and that’s a totally fair point. It makes total sense to want something they enjoyed that vanished one day for little reason to come back. That said, I don’t think it’s fair to say that people only like new Summoner because they want ‘carried’ by an ‘easy job’ etc. Surely it’s perfectly accceptable to like the new Summoner but also like the old Summoner lol. I know I enjoyed both versions.

As for ‘old Summoner’, I feel like they’re gearing up to release a pure DoT based job to replace it. Not only Summoner, but almost every class in the game has had their DoT abilities and interactions reduced, removed or otherwise reworked to be as minimalistic as possible. Which opens the door for them to design a full-on DoT based job that doesn’t have any auxiliary mechanics that need to be accounted for (i.e summoning). So new Summoner can stay ‘new’, but the ‘old Summoner’ playstyle can be redone somewhat to give the DoTs the full focus of the design

[Mikey_R]

As for ‘old Summoner’, I feel like they’re gearing up to release a pure DoT based job to replace it. Not only Summoner, but almost every class in the game has had their DoT abilities and interactions reduced, removed or otherwise reworked to be as minimalistic as possible. Which opens the door for them to design a full-on DoT based job that doesn’t have any auxiliary mechanics that need to be accounted for (i.e summoning). So new Summoner can stay ‘new’, but the ‘old Summoner’ playstyle can be redone somewhat to give the DoTs the full focus of the design

Well, I do suspect we will get another caster, so bring out the Green Mage.

[CelestiCer]

Slightly shocked to the realization that " Renathras " isn't even trolling through copy-pasting with ChatGPT. They genuinely mean every paragraph they wrote. Which is like the best part of it all.

Depth to me? provides Extra thought, decision making, something. That " oomph " feeling you get for doing it right even though the game clearly gave you the option to do it wrong, you didn't... and it feels rewarding. Specially when wrapped up in a fun rotation. This can all vary as mundane as Positionals, proper Leyline placements, Uptime you sought for, Slide-casting properly, perfectly timed Raidbuffs and feeding them with maxed out resource bars... some Flare/Flavor/Intricacy/Complexity, something that makes Job rotation exciting to pull off. Some Depth.

Take all of that away, and you have the opposite which is Unseasoned/Bland/Boring/Braindead Job design, Shallow. And players who love this? Crucify others for wanting more or even an ounce of what they lost back cause of x reasons. Filthy elitists just want to gatekeep a Job or its Jank or Clunkiness or its Bloat or outright " to difficult " etc w/e excuse they can write.

Nothing wrong with liking simplicity. But the fictional concept that there is another Job for you? is Bull. Don't like current x? reworked SMN? MCH? that's fine... you can go BLM. And that pisses off players cause some players don't like x aesthetics, or x rotation, or x skills, or even its playstyle. Sometimes a Job clicks for players or its Aesthetics or its Job fantasy, specially before it got changed. Telling them to go play another Job is ...Shallow.

Players probably rather have optional difficulty or depth within their own Job and playing their Job at whatever difficulty they are comfortable with rather then going to an entire different Job that they might never have nor will find appealing. Might sound idealistic, and probably far-fetched seeing as Square just is going to make everything easier after its been made easier to make it more and more easier. Then we want Depth? Complexity? and we get told that other fun historical line back at us. " Go play Ultimate ".

[Mikey_R]

Depth to me? provides Extra thought, decision making, something. That " oomph " feeling you get for doing it right even though the game clearly gave you the option to do it wrong, you didn't... and it feels rewarding. Specially when wrapped up in a fun rotation. This can all vary as mundane as Positionals, proper Leyline placements, Uptime you sought for, Slide-casting properly, perfectly timed Raidbuffs and feeding them with maxed out resource bars... some Flare/Flavor/Intricacy/Complexity, something that makes Job rotation exciting to pull off. [B]Some Depth[/B

Since the original discussion was about how new summoner has no depth, so I will use your points to highlight where new Summoner does fall into the concept of 'depth'.

1. Positionals. Whilst this is mostly seen as a melee concept, this does still apply to all jobs, in regards to casters, this is to do with where they stand and how that will impact them in regards to getting casts off. Now, whilst Summoner has very few casts, most of them are long casts (Ruby Ruin and Slipstream), so you have to be able to be in a position that getting those casts off is possible and you only have 1 Swiftcast per minute. Summoner also has to contend with a gap closer and melee strike straight after (Crimson Cyclone and Crimson Strike), so you have to ensure that you going into melee range for 2 GCDs is not going to impact anyone else in regards to mechanics. Whilst yes, the other casters also have to take these points into account, Summoner is also the only one who has to choose where these long casts are (as opposed to choosing when the insta casts are going), which is a different perspective to have to take. (You mention Lay Lines, but that is job specific and comes under positionals in regards to this point).

2. Uptime. This has obviously been a talking point in Endwalker as a whole, mainly in regards to Melee. All that can really be said for Summoner on this point is making sure the boss gets the full Slipstream uptime (though I do recognise your list isn't necessarily aimed at Summoner and so will contain elements that are applied in a more broad scope).

3. Slidecasting, Ruby Ruin and Slipstream can both be slidecasted. Again, same as point 2.

4. Raid Buffs is something most DPS jobs have to contend with, however, most are just fire and forget. I would honestly prefer to have something that brings more than just a damage buff, like Reaper's Arcane Circle or Monk's Brotherhood. Though Summoner does have a raid buff (and does feed with resources, ie Aetherflow).

As for the short list:

- Flare. this is a BLM only action D: that is unfar to the other jobs /jk. however, as I understand it, 'flare' is just the visual effects, which you cannot deny for Summoner, is impressive.
- Flavour, you can argue that new Summoner is too different from old Summoner, however, there were just as many people who didn't like the old Summoner aesthetic because you didn't summon big primals to do big damage, you know, like every other Summoner in the franchise.
- Intricacy is also a loose term because, what makes the job intricate? Is it the ability to move around your rotation to better prepare yourself for the future fight mechanics intricate? If so, Summoner does this, if not, Summoner fails. If it is more to do with how everything interacts with each other, then it doesn't fit that as well as it probably could.
- And lastly, does a complex job really mean depth? What is it about a complex job that means it automatically has depth? Infact, what makes a job complex in the first place? I almost suspect that, once you start trying to define complexity, you will have overlap with what people define as depth. So, is there anything that distinguishes the two?

It should go without saying that this discussion about what defines a job as 'deep' or 'has depth' is most likely going to be wholy subjective as noone is going to agree 100% with what criteria should be used to give a job their measure of 'depth', which is why you cannot take one person's word on their view on how a job is.

[CelestiCer]

It should go without saying that this discussion about what defines a job as 'deep' or 'has depth' is most likely going to be wholy subjective as noone is going to agree 100% with what criteria should be used to give a job their measure of 'depth', which is why you cannot take one person's word on their view on how a job is.

Not entirely? My post was more general towards the Thread topic although you can apply it to just SMN its not limited to SMN since every Job got hit with something in some way shape or form. Some less or more then others.

Flair = Visuals, how the animations the weaving and combos feel or hit and sound.
Flavor = Anything that is not about bashing 1 button to make a Job flavorful.
Complexity = Self explanatory and Intricacy can be used honestly as well to give a Job uniqueness and Depth
I am not an English teacher? and English is not my main language either... just fyi (PS being told its Flair not Flare idk English is like my 3rd language =u=; )

Subjectively , any player can claim x Job remains to have acceptable Depth even after its reworked/changed/neutered/butchered, use any definition you want sure. But once they remove so much of its Flair/Cast-Times/Skills/Resource-Management/complexity? Not everyone likes the shallow swimming pool that barely gets our ankles wet... and then have others and Square tell us we can only ride the Waterslides into deep waters if you have a BLM tattoo on your arm.

And rather anyone wants to use the words Flair/Depth/Complexity/Intricacy/Uniqueness/Difficulty etc, once a Job feels Braindead? Dumber? Simplified? Described and claimed by the players that main it perhaps for years and aren't pleased with it? I mean... arguing definitions seems irrelevant at that point. It's not really rocket science what Square has been doing :/

That still doesn't change that people love things to be shallow? and I don't mind that players do? but not at the cost of what made Jobs fun for many. Allow those who enjoy complexity or Depth the option to enjoy that on their favorite Jobs and not just x Job.

[tearagion]

People don't necessarily hate new summoner for what it is, but for what it took away.

Nah I hate it for what it is too. When RDM/RPR run absolute circles around you in nuance and flexibility, and tanks+ast have more involved rotations, maybe the DPS job in question is poorly designed. What it took away is what makes me upset in addition to hating the job.

[IDontPetLalas]

Nah I hate it for what it is too. When RDM/RPR run absolute circles around you in nuance and flexibility, and tanks+ast have more involved rotations, maybe the DPS job in question is poorly designed. What it took away is what makes me upset in addition to hating the job.

I wouldn't say that AST is more involved rotations than the current summoner. You may be thinking of the opener, but after that? No, not at all. With tanks, maybe you could make a case that they're comparable.

[tearagion]

I wouldn't say that AST is more involved rotations than the current summoner. You may be thinking of the opener, but after that? No, not at all. With tanks, maybe you could make a case that they're comparable.

I chose the word involved for a specific reason, cards alone require more consideration than anything in SMN's kit.