Ungendered sit poses, please?

[KageTokage]

I feel like more options for creative expression and allowing you to make your character feel just right is inherently better and never a bad thing.

Race/gender combos being locked into having a specific personality for their emotes is inherently awkward when it at times clashes with the actual personality of the character in question even when it comes to NPCs.

[DRHaymaker]

*sigh*

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You're just saying "there's absolutely nothing that anyone could possibly glean from a single thing." without a remotely good argument. Nor am I going to repeat myself that "why" you would make a request needs to be more than "because I want it."

Try introspection - think on why you think the way you do. If all you can come up with is "because I want it" there too... then it's probably not worth requesting, because you didn't think about it much in the first place, so why should anyone else?

I largely think when it comes to making claims around a majority or what not I think using non official data which we do not have is a fair to use to make any claim that for either side.

This sentence doesn't make sense, but based on your previous comments, you mean making claims on majority based on non-official data isn't fair for either side to use?

Uh... there is no official data though. So again, you're wrong.

To say something has to be liked by the majority or should be needed detracts from the human element behind the company.

They are.... a BUSINESS. They're not going to waste money and time on something practically no one is going to use

Also not sure about us that want this for uniqueness are not in the minatory we seem to face some heavily backlash when it comes to unique glamour items.

Yes - take the hint, please.

Speculation is fine to make, but using said speculation as fact is where I have problem.

...Did you burn your hand a lot on the stove as a kid? Did you speculate each time that the red hot burner might not hurt you the next time, just because it burned you the last time? How long did it take before you stopped speculated, and started making an educated guess?


Honestly, I just got bored reading the rest.

I feel like more options for creative expression and allowing you to make your character feel just right is inherently better and never a bad thing.

If you think how you sit is a "creative expression", it's time to log off for a while - you're far too invested. Also, it's a bad thing if it starts to affect others, as was already talked about.

Race/gender combos being locked into having a specific personality for their emotes is inherently awkward when it at times clashes with the actual personality of the character in question even when it comes to NPCs.

YOU find it awkward. YOU think it clashes. Start talking about how you feel instead of acting like there's an intrinsic truth to what you're saying.

[Bobby66]

*sigh*

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You're just saying "there's absolutely nothing that anyone could possibly glean from a single thing." without a remotely good argument. Nor am I going to repeat myself that "why" you would make a request needs to be more than "because I want it."

Try introspection - think on why you think the way you do. If all you can come up with is "because I want it" there too... then it's probably not worth requesting, because you didn't think about it much in the first place, so why should anyone else?



This sentence doesn't make sense, but based on your previous comments, you mean making claims on majority based on non-official data isn't fair for either side to use?

Uh... there is no official data though. So again, you're wrong.



They are.... a BUSINESS. They're not going to waste money and time on something practically no one is going to use



Yes - take the hint, please.



...Did you burn your hand a lot on the stove as a kid? Did you speculate each time that the red hot burner might not hurt you the next time, just because it burned you the last time? How long did it take before you stopped speculated, and started making an educated guess?


Honestly, I just got bored reading the rest.




If you think how you sit is a "creative expression", it's time to log off for a while - you're far too invested. Also, it's a bad thing if it starts to affect others, as was already talked about.



YOU find it awkward. YOU think it clashes. Start talking about how you feel instead of acting like there's an intrinsic truth to what you're saying.

It may not be worth it to you, but it may be worth it for another person which makes the request valid. The fact we do not have any official data means that any claim we can gleam from unofficial data is largely insignificant in my opinion when it comes to large sweeping generalizations like the major do not want x or they want x. SE as a whole is a business, a person loses nothing by requesting a claim, and who knows maybe one day it will happen. We do not know for certain what the outcome of a request will be nor we do know for certain it needs to massively supported by the community for it to be added. This is pure speculation on your part, but you state it like it is fact. That is my problem with speculation. A stove can cause burns that is fact, a feature not being added because it is not preserved as profitable is not a 100% fact. Many things go into such things, and a project lead can choose to add an feature that was done on the private time of developer depending on their pool without prior approval. People should make the requests and suggestions no matter how weird, or pointless they may seem cause the truth of the matter is you really on need to sway those with power at the end of the day, and sometimes all it takes it just a simple suggestion to be yeah that is a good idea lets look into it. It is cool if your position is not 100% based around logic, it is okay if you stance is fueled by an emotional response or desire in not liking the idea of a single pool of sitting positions. All of this is cool, but by no means is your stance 100% factual it cannot be since we do not have the proper metrics to make such claims, end of story. This goes for both sides on this. I am a fairly binary person, I tend to prefer official metrics, I do make my own educated guesses but as mentioned those are just speculation on my part based around the incomplete and proberly faultily data samples.

Guess what I am saying is if neither side can prove diffidently X will happen, and we use flimsy data just by nature we do not know the official metrics, and just because official metrics are not available to use does that turn the unofficial metrics as ironclad enough to make factual statements or do they simply remain best guesses as to what may or may not be wanted, but still guesses at the core? Or speculation as to how well liked or not liked something is? Both sides and legit just go back and forth using their own metrics. Which is why I am not a fan of using non official data.

On a side note I do wish SE would do polls and such regarding features, while being transparent with the results. Though I do get it is a double edge sword cause then it may create an expectation.

I understand tone gets lost in text, but overall you do seem slightly emotional over this though so maybe you should take a step back, and stop going after people for having a differing view then your own. No need for you to speak the way you did to Kage. Not sure what bad thing you are talking about by giving access to everyone to the same sitting positions, my only guess it is either cycling through cpose or the loss of a unique character aspect. The latter of which I do fall in that camp, but to say it is a bad thing is a stretch to say the least. I do also feel players like Kage are a better representation of the general FFXIV player. Though once again this is speculation on my part based around my own biases and personal interactions in game and on this board itself.

Please understand am I by no means saying my experience is fact, this is just my own take based around my own interactions on the subjects around player choice and more options. Also does not mean I am trying to belittle your own view, I understand that based around your interpretation and own experience you have come to a different conclusion. Problem is neither of us have a means to say one is factual correct over another. We also do not know the true reason behind why SE did the poses they way they need, or why certain things get genderlocked. Could be intent, could be programing limitations, could be they forgot, could be a number of reasons. We have no way to know for certain all we can do as players is speculate.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I’m very traditional in my gendered mannerisms and attire for myself and my characters, but all for options for those who’d use them. I actually wondered why some poses that seem neutral are only available to one gender though, like standing with your arms behind your head for catgirls only.

Don’t see the harm in more poses even if I’d never use them myself.

[IkaraGreydancer]

At this point this thread is dumb and has gone nowhere. Again this isn't real life and no game is going to be able to allow you to "express yourself" 100% how you want. I'm honestly glad my enjoyment of a game isn't tied in any way to how well I'm able to express myself. More important things to worry/care about in xiv

[PyurBlue]

Because what you want and what you expect are two different things

At this point, it feels like you're going off on a tangent. Whatever it is that you think I want, and whatever it is that you think I expect don't have any obvious connections to the lack of information present in the character creation process.

a visible indicator that there is or is not interest

If you remember you were called out for stating that one group is small. You had no evidence for this.

The absolute unabashed EGO of you people. This is dripping in narcissism, "The only thing I need to say is I want it, and it's justified enough to make a 'request' - I don't need any other argument ".

A bit of an overreaction isn't it?

What was said is completely correct. You don't need anything other than a desire to make a request. Why would you need anything else?

Now to be fair to you, it seems like from some of your later posts you're arguing that how other people are affected should be taken into account. That's always nice to do, but we're on a forum. If other people have objections, they can voice them. That's more sensible than having the original requester trying to figure out every possible problem that their idea may create.

If you're also referring to the technical side of implementing a new idea, that essentially requires SE to participate in the discussion. Not that it stops people from speculating on their own (and that includes myself). The fact of the matter is, as much as people like to guess that adding X will cause the servers to explode, or adding Y would cost SE 12 trillion dollars and bankrupt them, the average forum goer doesn't know that with much certainty. So rather than putting an impossible hurdle before someone just trying to suggest an improvement, let them speak freely and things can go from there.

At this point this thread is dumb and has gone nowhere. Again this isn't real life and no game is going to be able to allow you to "express yourself" 100% how you want.

Yes how convenient, the thing you're against simply can't happen and because of that no one should try to make obvious improvements either.

I'm honestly glad my enjoyment of a game isn't tied in any way to how well I'm able to express myself. More important things to worry/care about in xiv

It's also convenient that you know the correct way to enjoy video games and how to objectively weight the importance of a recreational activity.

The thread going nowhere is more of a reflection of a desire to have it go nowhere than anything else. For as much as some people want to say the whole thing is a trainwreck, there has at least been some communication between both sides.

For one thing it seems like the rigidity of the cpose list is something that should change. Some people are afraid that if poses are added, they'll have to deal with poses that they don't like. Some people are already in that boat. So I think a helpful suggestion to send to SE would be to work more customization into the cpose list. This would also allow the new sit poses to become universal as the biggest drawback to them, and the drawback that already exists for current poses, would be removed.

The only issue I suppose, is that the group against unlocking anything at all isn't going to happy with any change. I'm not sure how to compromise with them. I can echo what has been said before, that universal poses don't take away from the uniqueness of different characters since things like appearance and lore exist, and just from a realism standpoint, there isn't a sensible way to prevent one character from posing exactly like another. "Giving up" exclusive poses doesn't seem like a concession at all. Yet there is a group that would argue otherwise. So debate on that subject is probably just going to go on and on.

[IkaraGreydancer]

If you remember you were called out for stating that one group is small. You had no evidence for this.


A bit of an overreaction isn't it?

What was said is completely correct. You don't need anything other than a desire to make a request. Why would you need anything else?

Now to be fair to you, it seems like from some of your later posts you're arguing that how other people are affected should be taken into account. That's always nice to do, but we're on a forum. If other people have objections, they can voice them. That's more sensible than having the original requester trying to figure out every possible problem that their idea may create.

If you're also referring to the technical side of implementing a new idea, that essentially requires SE to participate in the discussion. Not that it stops people from speculating on their own (and that includes myself). The fact of the matter is, as much as people like to guess that adding X will cause the servers to explode, or adding Y would cost SE 12 trillion dollars and bankrupt them, the average forum goer doesn't know that with much certainty. So rather than putting an impossible hurdle before someone just trying to suggest an improvement, let them speak freely and things can go from there.


Yes how convenient, the thing you're against simply can't happen and because of that no one should try to make obvious improvements either.


It's also convenient that you know the correct way to enjoy video games and how to objectively weight the importance of a recreational activity.

The thread going nowhere is more of a reflection of a desire to have it go nowhere than anything else. For as much as some people want to say the whole thing is a trainwreck, there has at least been some communication between both sides.

For one thing it seems like the rigidity of the cpose list is something that should change. Some people are afraid that if poses are added, they'll have to deal with poses that they don't like. Some people are already in that boat. So I think a helpful suggestion to send to SE would be to work more customization into the cpose list. This would also allow the new sit poses to become universal as the biggest drawback to them, and the drawback that already exists for current poses, would be removed.

The only issue I suppose, is that the group against unlocking anything at all isn't going to happy with any change. I'm not sure how to compromise with them. I can echo what has been said before, that universal poses don't take away from the uniqueness of different characters since things like appearance and lore exist, and just from a realism standpoint, there isn't a sensible way to prevent one character from posing exactly like another. "Giving up" exclusive poses doesn't seem like a concession at all. Yet there is a group that would argue otherwise. So debate on that subject is probably just going to go on and on.

The thread HASNT gone anywhere. Anyone with can see this. It is a fact that people will never be able to fully express themselves how they want in any game. Yes indeed that CANT happen. Did I say improvements can't be made? No. Quote where I said that or stop talking plz if you're gonna put words in my mouth.

Next. I know the correct way to enjoy a video for ME. Did you miss the "I'm glad my enjoyment" part there? That part is about me, myself and I. And I've already put forth a compromise, give both genders more exclusive emotes. Give a male a more feminine sit but make it fully theirs. (Ie dont just give them a sit females have). Same for women with a masculine sit. I don't see how this is an issue. It gives more options while also keeping things exclusive

[PyurBlue]

The thread HASNT gone anywhere.

Well, I still feel like I've come out with more information than when I came in.

It is a fact that people will never be able to fully express themselves how they want in any game. Yes indeed that CANT happen.

I think you're a bit overconfident on this. Personally, I feel like FF14 would be in a good spot if it just got rid of arbitrary restrictions. I can deal with limited developer resources meaning we can't have 50,000 emotes, but having 20 good emotes and being locked out of 15 of them because "those are for guys" or something just feels dumb.

Did I say improvements can't be made? No. Quote where I said that or stop talking plz if you're gonna put words in my mouth.

You said the tread was dumb, you mentioned that FF14 isn't real life, and you mentioned that being 100% satisfied with expression is impossible. From what I recall, only you've mentioned anything about 100% satisfaction. I brought up the immersion factor of locked emotes by stating in real life anyone could make any pose they wanted, but apparently since this isn't real life that point is completely invalid? The majority of the thread is just suggesting improvements, at least in those posts made by people wanting to see some kind of change, so I don't think it's a stretch to interpret your comment as being against seeking improvements, at least in the context of this thread.

But if you're saying that I'm wrong, then fine, I read too much into it.

Next. I know the correct way to enjoy a video for ME. Did you miss the "I'm glad my enjoyment" part there? That part is about me, myself and I. And I've already put forth a compromise, give both genders more exclusive emotes. Give a male a more feminine sit but make it fully theirs. (Ie dont just give them a sit females have). Same for women with a masculine sit. I don't see how this is an issue. It gives more options while also keeping things exclusive

You also mentioned that there are more important things to worry about. Now this could have also been in reference to your personal feelings, but then why even state it? What important is always going to be subjective.

As for your suggested compromise, I touched on the problem with it earlier. It's simply inefficient. The devs will make 50 emotes, but then any character will only get 5 of them, and the player doesn't get a say in which 5. They could all be awful. It's very similar to the issue that people have brought up with auto cpose. The less control we have, the more likely it is we'll have to deal with something that we don't like. If the devs made 50 unrestricted emotes, then there is no problem. Any player can pick the best ones for their character.

[VerdeLuck]

The thread HASNT gone anywhere. Anyone with can see this. It is a fact that people will never be able to fully express themselves how they want in any game. Yes indeed that CANT happen. Did I say improvements can't be made? No. Quote where I said that or stop talking plz if you're gonna put words in my mouth.

Next. I know the correct way to enjoy a video for ME. Did you miss the "I'm glad my enjoyment" part there? That part is about me, myself and I. And I've already put forth a compromise, give both genders more exclusive emotes. Give a male a more feminine sit but make it fully theirs. (Ie dont just give them a sit females have). Same for women with a masculine sit. I don't see how this is an issue. It gives more options while also keeping things exclusive

The thread won't go anywhere. Fundementally this comes down to a completionist mindset. They might not ever use it but it just bothers them that there is possibly some gear or pose or animation that they cannot have. They want all of the options on their main character and want to be a completionist about this game, whether or not they will acutally use them. Having more emotes and animations, a wider range, but still being race/gender specific would be wonderful for fleshing out the world and differences in body types and races, but it doesn't scratch that completionist itch, you can't have everything and that bothers people.

It does seem like SE isn't entirely on board with that either, as with the new event they released another gender locked set of gear, so they are definitely on board with separating gear and poses by gender, they aren't going to homogenize every race and gender together into a slurry. Sure they'll give people the maid dress on catboys if they want to go be a troll in DF or ERP in limsa, but they don't seem like they're about to throw open the doors and never make locked gear again.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Well, I still feel like I've come out with more information than when I came in.


I think you're a bit overconfident on this. Personally, I feel like FF14 would be in a good spot if it just got rid of arbitrary restrictions. I can deal with limited developer resources meaning we can't have 50,000 emotes, but having 20 good emotes and being locked out of 15 of them because "those are for guys" or something just feels dumb.


You said the tread was dumb, you mentioned that FF14 isn't real life, and you mentioned that being 100% satisfied with expression is impossible. From what I recall, only you've mentioned anything about 100% satisfaction. I brought up the immersion factor of locked emotes by stating in real life anyone could make any pose they wanted, but apparently since this isn't real life that point is completely invalid? The majority of the thread is just suggesting improvements, at least in those posts made by people wanting to see some kind of change, so I don't think it's a stretch to interpret your comment as being against seeking improvements, at least in the context of this thread.

But if you're saying that I'm wrong, then fine, I read too much into it.



You also mentioned that there are more important things to worry about. Now this could have also been in reference to your personal feelings, but then why even state it? What important is always going to be subjective.

As for your suggested compromise, I touched on the problem with it earlier. It's simply inefficient. The devs will make 50 emotes, but then any character will only get 5 of them, and the player doesn't get a say in which 5. They could all be awful. It's very similar to the issue that people have brought up with auto cpose. The less control we have, the more likely it is we'll have to deal with something that we don't like. If the devs made 50 unrestricted emotes, then there is no problem. Any player can pick the best ones for their character.

You must not be getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying have 20 emotes and have most be locked in saying have a bunch for each gender. Have each have 10+ different poses. Offer a greater volume of exclusive variety.

My point about real life stems from the fact that there are limitation on what can be done in a game. I've said this like 3 times now and it's not sinking in. I wouldn't call it a stretch of you think I'm against improvements, I'd call it beyond stupid to come to that conclusion when I already made a suggestion for improvement pages ago. Come on now.

The game you want is called Phantasy Star Online 2 New Genesis. They got rid of genders in that game and all emotes can be toggled between Type 1 and Type 2 as they're called. Seems far more up your alley and no this isn't sarcasm