Ungendered sit poses, please?

[Bobby66]

Thankfully, most of your post is just rambling and repeating yourself, so I don't need to go line by line.

Here's the thing - there has to be a reason why you make a request other than "I just want it.", because you're going to convince no one to your side.

"I want to drive 20 minutes out of the way and go to this store instead.. because I want to."
vs
"I want to drive 20 minutes out of the way and go to this store instead because it's cleaner and has better prices."

You think all you need is the desire to want something to make a request, and it's telling, because once again, the majority, if not all of the arguments made against the points against it brought up are emotion focused. Any "data" brought up shows, even at it's most generously taken, that there's no practical demand for it.

Even if I were to say there's 10k unique downloads (there's no evidence of that, and much lower downloads counted, which means people are counted multiple times), and that they're still active, that's 0.68% OF ACTIVE PLAYERS according to the 6.2 Lucky Bancho census report. Not even 1%.

There's no want for it, much less a need for it.

It is not what I think it is fact, to make the request all you is a desire. I never said anything about getting the request granted.


Here is the million dollar question what data does either side have to prove that their request is wanted or not? It is all based around our own personal bias. Using mods as a metric is dumb in the first place, violates ToS, has negative stigma around it, can be viewed as a hassle, and console players. That said also saying no one is vocal about it is also a dumb metric, if we are being generous how many people do you think use the forums or social media that player FFXIV, I am willing to grant it is lager number then those that use mods. Either way neither side can say if a feature is highly demanded or not. So creating an argument that form PoV is pure speculation. I still stand by most probably would be in favor of shared sitting positions, how many people would true down more options? Pretty sure the numbskulls like myself that would turn down more options are "uniqueness" are in the monitory. Granted, I do not think character poses should be unique unless they enrich or enhance or racial trait. Like if they had cat cleaning themselves, or a lalafell taking out a stool to get up on a chair, things like that should be unique. Way someone sits just to me does not fall under unique.

Once again, the requirements for making a request differ from the requirements to get it granted. Clearly there is a want for it or it would not have been requested, now it can be argued to which degree it is wanted. We have no real way of knowing that information so seems kind of moot. I do agree as mentioned with Joven I think the usage of "need" needs to be toned down. That said still have not explained how each sides arguments simply boil down to I don't like x, we don't need it. I do like X, I think we need it. Both sides have shit arguments. Both sides have arguments rooted in emotion, not data none of us really have data to go by, and the data we do have is kind of shit.

Now if you want to get into the technical aspect, have not looked into animation swaps in detail, but I do not think they are as simple as toggling a switch then adjust the frame to match. So an argument can be made that it is not worth developer time, and if it ever was to be done it probably would be something that is done on the side by a developer that felt passionate about it. That is speculation on my part though. Yeah, also ADHD, and dyslexic writing is not my strong suit, thanks for reading my rambling.

My

[Joven]

Using mods as a metric is dumb in the first place, violates ToS

It's not dumb though. It's a visible way to see if there is interest in something or not. If there are people turning to mods for whatever reason then there has to be an appeal to whatever it is they're looking for. Whether or not it's an acurate guage on if that something is worth looking into is another story.

And besides, it was those on the pro side that brought up the number of people using mods in the first place.

[Bobby66]

It's not dumb though. It's a visible way to see if there is interest in something or not. If there are people turning to mods for whatever reason then there has to be an appeal to whatever it is they're looking for. Whether or not it's an acurate guage on if that something is worth looking into is another story.

And besides, it was those on the pro side that brought up the number of people using mods in the first place.

By dumb I do mean it is not an accurate metric especially when it comes to more cosmetic and stylized choices to gauge if something is popular to the community at large. I do feel that neither side really has a good metric to use to make claims like the community at large wants it or does not want it. I think both sides using these data points as a means to try and make an argument in favor or against is just a mask to try and conceal for the most part the stance for and against largely boils down to an emotion or bias driven response. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, I do not think we have any means to say if something is wanted or not wanted by the community at large and since we do not have such information I do feel using such arguments is disingenuous.

You need to reread the thread - it was the the pro crowd that brought up mods, not the anti.




...huh?

Are you just trying to devalue everything so any metrics are meaningless? Or are you trying to create a level playing field, where even though there's nothing that can back up the pro side, there's also nothing that can back up the anti side?

I'm genuinely curious what your aim is here.




Yes... and the talk about unlocking gender based sit poses is nonexistent.



...no, you absolutely can. How do you think sample sizes work? What % of people do you think need to offer an opinion before you can make an educated guess?



No.



No. Why are you giving a lecture on speculation and whatnot and then making a statement on speculation as if it matters AT ALL? You're the one decided that it has no value, so why are you saying valueless things?



If you mean "turn down", alot, based on what data is available.



They're not.



They're the same thing. They're a business. If there's not any support of the request, they're not going to grant the request.



Non-point - it can be said for anything. At that point, you're just making noise.

Do not think I ever said anti side brought up mods, I did say mods are not a good metric to use as a means to determine if something is highly in demand or not. Way I see it when it comes to requests anyone is free to make a request, if something lacks a feature you would like by all means make a request. If it gets granted or not that is a different story altogether. I largely think when it comes to making claims around a majority or what not I think using non official data which we do not have is a fair to use to make any claim that for either side. That being said, I also do not think the appetence of a request is also a fair metric to say something would not be liked. That is why I also feel such metrics are kind of nebulous to begin with. I also fall in the camp as costumers we should also not make claims on behalf of SE. I do not necessarily feel something has supported by the vocal majority to get added or change something. Something easily could be added because a developer felt passionate about it. So request and demand do not always go hand in hand. At work I added a suggestion that I happened to see in passing by a commenter, it did not have mass likes or retweets but it was something I did on my free time. Not saying this is the norm, but it really does not hurt to simply ask for something you may want cause you never know. To say something has to be liked by the majority or should be needed detracts from the human element behind the company. I am sure many things can be contributed to someone take time our their day to work on something because they saw it in passing, or had their own personal desire to want it added.

Also not sure about us that want this for uniqueness are not in the minatory we seem to face some heavily backlash when it comes to unique glamour items. Maybe it just depends on the request. Speculation is fine to make, but using said speculation as fact is where I have problem. I do no think I ever implied what I said to be fact, just my own take or opinion on the matter. I really also do not see what available data do we have that people would generally turn down having access to the opposite genders poses. Pretty sure female DRK weapon pose was something many have asked for. I just find it hard to believe if SE put out a poll majority would say no to shared animations and allow people to choose if even the option. I just feel it is one of those things as stated before is not "needed" or even thought about all that much so it does not come up very often. Though if posed with a direct question they probably would be all for it. That is also why I feel the data sets we have are kind of meh tbh.

How is the fact that someone has requested something and people are in support of it is not a point? That has been my point the entire time, people are free to make requests of what they want. They do not have to provide an argument or what not for the request to be valid. Will it likely get added without support nope, but the chance is possible. As mentioned I do it often at work, not saying its the same SE is a different beast and in my case it is small mobile game app. I know for example if I worked for SE and on FFXIV, I would work on a glamour hide toggle during my free time, and would present the final product and see if it gets approved or not.

How can we make an proper educated guess when things like this are already niche suggestions and are properly not even in the top 100 of things of what people would want to change? Though we cannot also say with a blanket statement that they lack of requests made inherently means people would not like or use the option if added. What I am trying to say is the lack of request does not inherently mean the request would not be liked by the majority. This could just be one of those things that people would be pleasantly surprised if it happened. We cannot say either way.

Either way request is a request

[Joven]

By dumb I do mean it is not an accurate metric especially when it comes to more cosmetic and stylized choices to gauge if something is popular to the community at large. I do feel that neither side really has a good metric to use to make claims like the community at large wants it or does not want it. I think both sides using these data points as a means to try and make an argument in favor or against is just a mask to try and conceal for the most part the stance for and against largely boils down to an emotion or bias driven response. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, I do not think we have any means to say if something is wanted or not wanted by the community at large and since we do not have such information I do feel using such arguments is disingenuous.

Except I wasn't using those numbers in an effort to prove there was no interest. The person who brought it up was trying to point to those numbers as proof "a lot of people" were interested in this option. I merely pointed out that the numbers cited as compared to the total subscriber base was insignificant.

As for the other person, they wanted to claim there was no data whatsoever when there clearly is despite how insignificant it may be.

[Bobby66]

Except I wasn't using those numbers in an effort to prove there was no interest. The person who brought it up was trying to point to those numbers as proof "a lot of people" were interested in this option. I merely pointed out that the numbers cited as compared to the total subscriber base was insignificant.

As for the other person, they wanted to claim there was no data whatsoever when there clearly is despite how insignificant it may be.

Oh I know it was not you. I just was just saying is a poor metric imo, and the data provided for a suggestion like this is weird to judge mainly because I do think a suggestion like this is not something people think about often. It is one of those things that maybe when they see a pose they might say in passing oh that is cool I wish I had that. I know that is how I was with female drk stance. When I saw it I was like damn wish I had that, looked into a way of getting and problem solved. I guess what I am saying I do not think trying to use data to make the claim something like this is wanted or not wanted is fair cause I do think this is one of those issues people don't find themselves wanting unless it happens in that moment, but if added I do think most would rather have more options verse less per character. Just seems to the logical path FFXIV follows more options are generally better.

[DRHaymaker]

*sigh*

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You're just saying "there's absolutely nothing that anyone could possibly glean from a single thing." without a remotely good argument. Nor am I going to repeat myself that "why" you would make a request needs to be more than "because I want it."

Try introspection - think on why you think the way you do. If all you can come up with is "because I want it" there too... then it's probably not worth requesting, because you didn't think about it much in the first place, so why should anyone else?

I largely think when it comes to making claims around a majority or what not I think using non official data which we do not have is a fair to use to make any claim that for either side.

This sentence doesn't make sense, but based on your previous comments, you mean making claims on majority based on non-official data isn't fair for either side to use?

Uh... there is no official data though. So again, you're wrong.

To say something has to be liked by the majority or should be needed detracts from the human element behind the company.

They are.... a BUSINESS. They're not going to waste money and time on something practically no one is going to use

Also not sure about us that want this for uniqueness are not in the minatory we seem to face some heavily backlash when it comes to unique glamour items.

Yes - take the hint, please.

Speculation is fine to make, but using said speculation as fact is where I have problem.

...Did you burn your hand a lot on the stove as a kid? Did you speculate each time that the red hot burner might not hurt you the next time, just because it burned you the last time? How long did it take before you stopped speculated, and started making an educated guess?


Honestly, I just got bored reading the rest.

I feel like more options for creative expression and allowing you to make your character feel just right is inherently better and never a bad thing.

If you think how you sit is a "creative expression", it's time to log off for a while - you're far too invested. Also, it's a bad thing if it starts to affect others, as was already talked about.

Race/gender combos being locked into having a specific personality for their emotes is inherently awkward when it at times clashes with the actual personality of the character in question even when it comes to NPCs.

YOU find it awkward. YOU think it clashes. Start talking about how you feel instead of acting like there's an intrinsic truth to what you're saying.

[Bobby66]

*sigh*

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You're just saying "there's absolutely nothing that anyone could possibly glean from a single thing." without a remotely good argument. Nor am I going to repeat myself that "why" you would make a request needs to be more than "because I want it."

Try introspection - think on why you think the way you do. If all you can come up with is "because I want it" there too... then it's probably not worth requesting, because you didn't think about it much in the first place, so why should anyone else?



This sentence doesn't make sense, but based on your previous comments, you mean making claims on majority based on non-official data isn't fair for either side to use?

Uh... there is no official data though. So again, you're wrong.



They are.... a BUSINESS. They're not going to waste money and time on something practically no one is going to use



Yes - take the hint, please.



...Did you burn your hand a lot on the stove as a kid? Did you speculate each time that the red hot burner might not hurt you the next time, just because it burned you the last time? How long did it take before you stopped speculated, and started making an educated guess?


Honestly, I just got bored reading the rest.




If you think how you sit is a "creative expression", it's time to log off for a while - you're far too invested. Also, it's a bad thing if it starts to affect others, as was already talked about.



YOU find it awkward. YOU think it clashes. Start talking about how you feel instead of acting like there's an intrinsic truth to what you're saying.

It may not be worth it to you, but it may be worth it for another person which makes the request valid. The fact we do not have any official data means that any claim we can gleam from unofficial data is largely insignificant in my opinion when it comes to large sweeping generalizations like the major do not want x or they want x. SE as a whole is a business, a person loses nothing by requesting a claim, and who knows maybe one day it will happen. We do not know for certain what the outcome of a request will be nor we do know for certain it needs to massively supported by the community for it to be added. This is pure speculation on your part, but you state it like it is fact. That is my problem with speculation. A stove can cause burns that is fact, a feature not being added because it is not preserved as profitable is not a 100% fact. Many things go into such things, and a project lead can choose to add an feature that was done on the private time of developer depending on their pool without prior approval. People should make the requests and suggestions no matter how weird, or pointless they may seem cause the truth of the matter is you really on need to sway those with power at the end of the day, and sometimes all it takes it just a simple suggestion to be yeah that is a good idea lets look into it. It is cool if your position is not 100% based around logic, it is okay if you stance is fueled by an emotional response or desire in not liking the idea of a single pool of sitting positions. All of this is cool, but by no means is your stance 100% factual it cannot be since we do not have the proper metrics to make such claims, end of story. This goes for both sides on this. I am a fairly binary person, I tend to prefer official metrics, I do make my own educated guesses but as mentioned those are just speculation on my part based around the incomplete and proberly faultily data samples.

Guess what I am saying is if neither side can prove diffidently X will happen, and we use flimsy data just by nature we do not know the official metrics, and just because official metrics are not available to use does that turn the unofficial metrics as ironclad enough to make factual statements or do they simply remain best guesses as to what may or may not be wanted, but still guesses at the core? Or speculation as to how well liked or not liked something is? Both sides and legit just go back and forth using their own metrics. Which is why I am not a fan of using non official data.

On a side note I do wish SE would do polls and such regarding features, while being transparent with the results. Though I do get it is a double edge sword cause then it may create an expectation.

I understand tone gets lost in text, but overall you do seem slightly emotional over this though so maybe you should take a step back, and stop going after people for having a differing view then your own. No need for you to speak the way you did to Kage. Not sure what bad thing you are talking about by giving access to everyone to the same sitting positions, my only guess it is either cycling through cpose or the loss of a unique character aspect. The latter of which I do fall in that camp, but to say it is a bad thing is a stretch to say the least. I do also feel players like Kage are a better representation of the general FFXIV player. Though once again this is speculation on my part based around my own biases and personal interactions in game and on this board itself.

Please understand am I by no means saying my experience is fact, this is just my own take based around my own interactions on the subjects around player choice and more options. Also does not mean I am trying to belittle your own view, I understand that based around your interpretation and own experience you have come to a different conclusion. Problem is neither of us have a means to say one is factual correct over another. We also do not know the true reason behind why SE did the poses they way they need, or why certain things get genderlocked. Could be intent, could be programing limitations, could be they forgot, could be a number of reasons. We have no way to know for certain all we can do as players is speculate.

[Raoabolic]

It's not dumb though. It's a visible way to see if there is interest in something or not. If there are people turning to mods for whatever reason then there has to be an appeal to whatever it is they're looking for. Whether or not it's an acurate guage on if that something is worth looking into is another story.

And besides, it was those on the pro side that brought up the number of people using mods in the first place.

Funny you should mention that since there is a mod that actually lets you change player character's glamours to a static npc look. I wonder if those on the pro side are willing to concede that having options is a good thing considering the other giant thread asking for this feature. Personally, I would never use it since it does violate the ToS and i'm a good boy, but it is out there and it looks like plenty have already downloaded it, lol.

[Joven]

Funny you should mention that since there is a mod that actually lets you change player character's glamours to a static npc look. I wonder if those on the pro side are willing to concede that having options is a good thing considering the other giant thread asking for this feature. Personally, I would never use it since it does violate the ToS and i'm a good boy, but it is out there and it looks like plenty have already downloaded it, lol.

I've always conceded that's an option, but as I'm also being a good boy I don't use or endorse it.

[DRHaymaker]

Here is the million dollar question what data does either side have to prove that their request is wanted or not? [...] Using mods as a metric is dumb in the first place, violates ToS, has negative stigma around it, can be viewed as a hassle, and console players.

You need to reread the thread - it was the the pro crowd that brought up mods, not the anti.

That said also saying no one is vocal about it is also a dumb metric

...huh?

Are you just trying to devalue everything so any metrics are meaningless? Or are you trying to create a level playing field, where even though there's nothing that can back up the pro side, there's also nothing that can back up the anti side?

I'm genuinely curious what your aim is here.

if we are being generous how many people do you think use the forums or social media that player FFXIV, I am willing to grant it is lager number then those that use mods.

Yes... and the talk about unlocking gender based sit poses is nonexistent.

Either way neither side can say if a feature is highly demanded or not.

...no, you absolutely can. How do you think sample sizes work? What % of people do you think need to offer an opinion before you can make an educated guess?

So creating an argument that form PoV is pure speculation.

No.

I still stand by most probably would be in favor of shared sitting positions

No. Why are you giving a lecture on speculation and whatnot and then making a statement on speculation as if it matters AT ALL? You're the one decided that it has no value, so why are you saying valueless things?

how many people would true down more options?

If you mean "turn down", alot, based on what data is available.

Pretty sure the numbskulls like myself that would turn down more options are "uniqueness" are in the monitory

They're not.

Once again, the requirements for making a request differ from the requirements to get it granted.

They're the same thing. They're a business. If there's not any support of the request, they're not going to grant the request.

Clearly there is a want for it or it would not have been requested

Non-point - it can be said for anything. At that point, you're just making noise.