Has anyone quit healing?

[Semirhage]

So...okay let me see if I get this straight. As long as healing job design buries its head in the sand and refuses to address the ludicrous amount of casts of Glareoileficosis, and -pretends- that healers spend most of their time healing, then it's all copacetic? That's...an opinion.

[Venur]

Dunno if it counts as healer quitting but, my brother stickly play healers in all MMO's we play since 1999. But he never made it to the level cap in FF14 in several expention attemps despite everything he like about the game for 2 reasons.

Soloing as a healer in FF Online is one of the most boring thing that you can do in a video game. Spaming 1 single spell and keeping a dot is mind dumbing and slow.

He could have had kept playing telling himself that he wille ventualy be a healer in a group but then, he just saw that the average grouping for a healer is 80% spaming the same two damage skills he was doing while soloing then casting a heal there and there.

So FF14 mades my bro quit healing before he could even be a healer. Thats how bad healing appear to some players in final. It demotivated a guy that heals for the past 23 years. He played everquest as a cleric and couldn't get pass the easy grinding wall of FF14 lol.

[Teno]

No, it is not the case. Just some people have convinced themselves it is and go to great lengths to convince everyone else it is.

Casting a damage spell isn't what makes one a damage dealer anymore than someone borderline obese running into their house when being chased by a wasp doesn't make that person a runner or athlete. The focus of Healers in FFXIV right now is healing. Again, despite some people working very hard to convince everyone else otherwise as they've convinced themselves. The focus is to provide healing. With some Healers, this is much more direct and with others more passive, but if your party is dying because you couldn't be bothered to stop casting Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis long enough to heal them, then you have failed in your Role.

If a RDM or PLD doesn't cast Vercure or Clemency on someone, they aren't failing in their Role, since their Role isn't Healer.

If a Healer doesn't cast GCD and/or oGCD heals on people and they die, they are failing in their Role.

As much as the "most of my GCDs are damage spells" is prevalent, the focus of the Role is still on healing your party. The kits are even designed to NOT emphasis damage spells to further point to this truth as the design goal. The only reason you cast your damage spell more than anything is because we have so many oGCDs and they're so powerful you don't need to cast healing GCDs instead. But even the most ardent Glarespammer, if doing their job correctly, is weaving oGCD heals between their casts. Which were specifically reduced to 1.5 sec on all Healers to allow this.

Just as running from wasp doesn't make one a runner, casting a damage spell isn't what makes one a dpser.

The focus of DPSers is on their damage rotation and doing damage, nothing else. Anything that takes away from damage must be amazing utility designed to further damage or mitigate damage reduction. Many don't even have support abilities at all. And their toolkits are unambiguously focused on making their damage dealing front and center as the crux of it all.

Not so with Healers, whose damage spells are just kinda...there.

This isn't to say Healers don't, can't, or shouldn't do damage. But it isn't the focus of their Jobs, kits, or Role.

You're being delusional here. Healers have been green dps since ARR. If anything they're even more so now, despite spamming one button (vs so many spells back then, with fewer ogcds). Sage is a prime example, the dps checks being another. The devs keep adding bloat when we don't need an umpteenth ogcd heal.

Tl dr : make toxikon ogcd, it's just the perfect example of an interaction between heal and damage.

[ForsakenRoe]

So...okay let me see if I get this straight. As long as healing job design buries its head in the sand and refuses to address the ludicrous amount of casts of Glareoileficosis, and -pretends- that healers spend most of their time healing, then it's all copacetic? That's...an opinion.

Keyword here is 'time', and I'm spending a lot more 'time' on the GCDs of my damage, than I am on the 'instant cast' of the OGCDs I use to heal, right? Like if I'm SGE, let's be generous and say that each OGCD I use has a 1s animation lock. But every Dosis is 1.5s and I'm casting like 130 of them in a fight. Same with tanks, they use their mitigations a lot less than skills with a tooltip that contains the words 'does damage'

[Venur]

. Same with tanks, they use their mitigations a lot less than skills with a tooltip that contains the words 'does damage'

And thats why most tanks in FF14 are really just DPS in full plate with a taunt button.

[Renathras]

When most/all your GCDs are spent on DPS spells, in my opinion you are a DPSer.

Opinion noted. I think you're wrong. But you may have what opinion you want. What is relevant to my choice, however, is my opinion. One would think.

As I said, someone who runs for danger from time to time isn't a runner. There's a distinction there.

I will agree that healer dps spells are just kind of there as there was no thought by SE in what to do with them so they just kinda tacked it on, made every healer dps the same with a different colored spell and moved on.

I think this is the most frustrating part of it all. No other role has multiple Jobs that all have an identical core rotation. Though...Tanks are moving that direction, there's still the "WAR" side and "GNB" side. I get the theory is "A DoT allows you to keep dealing damage while casting heals and then you have your nuke spell for when you don't need to do any healing", but it seems we could mix that up at least a little, especially since SCH and SGE have mechanics (Eos and Kardia) that continue to heal even while you're casting your damage spell. It's why I've continually advocated that the Healer Jobs be split to have different kinds of damage kits/healing rotations. At the very least, they could do what Tanks have and have two general categories.

You're being delusional here.

No, you're stating your opinion as a fact. As I said, some people have convinced themselves of that, and insist on trying to convince others. There are several reasons for that, but they're irrelevant.

You realize if Toxicon was an oGCD, SGE would have no movement tool, right? The point of Toxicon in high end content is as a Ruin 2. Remove that and SGE will have to walk around with its thumb up its butt if there's a movement phase and Plegma and Icarus are on CD. That's a terrible idea. The better idea is to make Toxicon damage neutral (or at least not such a big damage loss - if it did 75% of 2x Dosis instead of 50% of 2x Dosis, that would at least be better) and possibly make other ways to generate it, like Rhizomata should generate an Adderssting when used.

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What makes a Healer is you're responsible for Healing.

What makes a Damage Dealer is you're not responsible for anything but dealing Damage.

This technically means several of our DPS Jobs aren't DPS Jobs (they're Support Role), but most of them are still only dealing damage. NIN's Trick/Mug is about dealing damage, etc.

[Teno]

And thats why most tanks in FF14 are really just DPS in full plate with a taunt button.

Exactly, in this game everyone is a dps with some jobs having spells on the side (ogcds) dedicated to survive/counter mechanics. It's pretty much always been the case and the ongoing homogenization only reinforces that, sadly.

[Teno]

What makes a Healer is you're responsible for Healing.

What makes a Damage Dealer is you're not responsible for anything but dealing Damage.

This technically means several of our DPS Jobs aren't DPS Jobs (they're Support Role), but most of them are still only dealing damage. NIN's Trick/Mug is about dealing damage, etc.

Refer to my comment above regarding the focus of the healer job. Yes it's my opinion and the opinion of how so many, how the game was built on and how it has evolved. And it's obviously not what Yoshida wants, which is why he's explicitly stated that he's fed up with healers pestering him. What you said is certainly what he wants but it's clearly not happening and it's failing, otherwise we wouldn't be in the state we've been in for 2 expansions (+?).

Also did you misunderstand my comment regarding toxikon or did I explain wrong ? Toxikon oGCD = you use your gcd heal to proc it and now have access to a somewhat dps neutral tool (probably a buff for burst windows). I've been advocating for it for a while here now. Admittedly, it would vastly improve our mobility and trivialize casual content even more but it's the gameplay idea that's been enticing me, basically a unique heal/dmg combo with the drawback of costing some mana. Similar interaction as in PvP.

DPS deal damage alright, healers/tanks have always been dps with tacked on survival tools.

[Renathras]

Refer to my comment above regarding the focus of the healer job. Yes it's my opinion and the opinion of how so many, how the game was built on and how it has evolved. And it's obviously not what Yoshida wants, which is why he's explicitly stated that he's fed up with healers pestering him. What you said is certainly what he wants (and I'm neutral to it) but it's clearly not happening and it's failing, otherwise we wouldn't be in the state we've been in for 2 expansions (+?).

Also did you misunderstand my comment regarding toxikon or did I explain wrong ? Toxikon oGCD = you use your gcd heal to proc it and now have access to a somewhat dps neutral tool (probably a buff for burst windows). I've been advocating for it for a while here now. Admittedly, it would vastly improve our mobility and trivialize casual content even more but it's the gameplay idea that's been enticing me, basically a unique heal/dmg combo with the drawback of costing some mana. Similar interaction as in PvP.

DPS deal damage alright, healers/tanks have always been dps with tacked on survival tools.

Refer to my comment above regarding the focus of the Healer Role. It's the opinion of many, but it's not how the game was built. ARR was not at all a "Green DPS" model, which is more something the community developed during HW, especially with Gordias more or less requiring it (even with Yoshi P saying otherwise). It wasn't generally accepted for Healers to DPS in content by the vast majority of the community when SB came out. That was the entire reason Cleric was changed to a DPS CD instead of a toggle, since too much of the community was just not doing damage on Healers before them. And as you say, the guy in charge of the game doesn't agree with the Green DPS mindset and model.

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As for Toxicon, SGE isn't really a GCD focused Healer. It would only work as a movement tool if used that way if you cast a Eukrasia GCD heal, and that's trying to fit into 3 button casts what we can do now with 1 for...reasons? SGE already has a high level of mobility, only beaten by SCH because Ruin 2 has no CD. Icarus is already a pretty huge boon, and you rarely will use up all Toxicons for any given movement. It just needs a better generation mechanism or to be made damage neutral. Making it DPS neutral but still GCD would give the exact same thing you're asking for but with a more relaxed pace since you wouldn't have to be power-weaving oGCD Toxicon on the tail end of EuDiagnosos/EuPrognosis while running to your mechanic safe spot. Remember that would be a double weave since Eukrasia already makes EuDiag/EuProg effectively a built in single weave for that GCD.

The result of making Toxicon oGCD would be the same as making it damage neutral, just with more steps and more carpel tunnel to do it. Besides, you'd still need to address Addersting generation - if your shields aren't broken, it doesn't matter if it's an oGCD, you wouldn't generate a replacement stack.

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Healers/Tanks are not "dps with tacked on survival tools."

Healers and Tanks are "healers and tanks with tacked on damage tools." Especially Healers. Our damage tools are borderline vestigial. No Healer Job is built from the ground up for dealing damage - not even SGE, which it would have made sense to do. Tanks are only passingly moreso, and really only GNB, which was built from the ground up to appeal to DPS players, especially Melee players, was actually built as a "Blue DPS" from the ground up.

WAR in particular has a borderline braindead damage rotation that is just one step above Glarespam in overall difficulty or things you have to track while playing. It has a 1-2 in front of your Glare (Storm's Path) and Dia (Storm's Eye) every 30 sec, and when it fills a gauge, it uses a big attack, and it has effectively Presence of Mind just twice as often (60 sec CD). It's the minimum you could do above Dia/Glarespam/Misery/Assize/Presence of Mind and is hardly a "dps" compared to anything that isn't SMN, which is looked down on as "not really a DPS job"/"brain-dead"/"lobotomized" by the other DPS Jobs because of how easy it is compared to them.

The goal of these kits is to allow the Jobs to clear solo content and to have something to do at the high end when they aren't needing to do their main Role at that moment in time.

[Venur]

No, it is not the case. Just some people have convinced themselves it is and go to great lengths to convince everyone else it is.

Actually to be faire. thats pretty much how healer has been intended since day one. I'm not a fan of that but it is simply how they designed the class. Probably to suit the originals final fantasy that never had a character doing only heals.

During normal dungeon grouping you probably won't get called for not dpsing. But healing requirement are so low during dongeons that I find myself starring at my screen doing nothing when I'm not dealing damage.
Seems like you won't reach the damage requirement if your healer don't deal damage in harder content but I couldn't tell since I'm not participating int hose.