Give us back the old Paladin

[Payadopa]

It's a multiplayer game, being an MMO is no excuse to have your kit depend on someone else action.

Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

[Rithy255]

Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

Ok so using any mitigation raid wide is already working towards your team, you shouldn't be dependent on your team to use your own cooldown or abilities.

Imagine this as a example, if Dark knights Shadow wall requires a GCD heal to mitigate for 25%, you'd be dependent on outside sources to properly use your actions and it would be "unique" for sure but it wouldn't make it fun for the dark knight to depend on a teammate to properly use their own skillset, It's a team based game but You should be in control of when you use your own abilities

Putting aside the argument that "PLD can proc it by holy sprit" ok? so 6.2 PLD would either have to use it inside burst or have a big DPS loss to use it, even if we have 6.3 PLD it ignores that PLD isn't able to proc it in any lower level content (even 80 content). The changes make sense feel great and responsive, the old Divine veil felt really outdated and bland to use.

Overall I think the Divine veil changes were great, I like working with my team and protecting them actively as PLD feels good.

[ForsakenRoe]

'Cool I got a new skill, how do I trigger it? Wait what do you mean I can't?'

Say what you will about the rotation, reworked Veil is absolutely superior to old Veil. It didn't even need to affect the PLD to be an improvement in my eyes, the fact it does is even better news. Being a tank means knowing what you have and when you'll have it, so you can plan what to use and where. Nobody would find it useful to have 'TBN, but you have to receive a heal first for it to work'. 'Oh, but you can use Souleater to trigger it!' Yeh and what if we're at HardSlash in the combo, or we're in the 2min and spamming Bloodspillers? Or would the solution there be to throw away a C+S, and use Abyssal Drain to trigger it, at a DPS loss?

[CKNovel]

Then let me try answering those 2 questions. Plus another one since that is a question asked to me by someone else

I wasn't necessary looking for an answer, just trying to demonstrate how cubbersome and niche it would be to gain one use of DV.
If you really want to strech it, you can 1 2 3, Atonement*3 and 1 2 before having to Holy spirit, which lasts 20 seconds top.

In any cases, if you really wanted to save a use, you would need to be able to use Divine Veil in that 20 second window, which is incredibly niche.
Yes, it happens as you say with P8SP2, but that's one case, it doesn't apply everywhere.

Even then, PLD still has PoA has extra mitigation, it's not like it was behind other tanks.
It might even be why SQEX decided to change it, easier to use and avoid extra uses on specific content which would throw the balance of said content.

Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

Here's the thing:
Raiding is already coordinating your party movement, raidbuff and mitigation.
Having to proc Divine Veil isn't a team effort, it's a responsibility.

Would you agree to restore pacification on WAR and old Living Dead, because those tanks lacks "team effort" abilities?
No, because it's ridiculous to have a tool which is someone else's responsibility.

[esra01]

I wasn't necessary looking for an answer, just trying to demonstrate how cubbersome and niche it would be to gain one use of DV.

I mean you posed the question where in those 2 situations having instant cast Divine Veil would be way better than old DV because of the limitation of your rotation, which is totally not true at all. Old DV needing to be procced is a very easy thing to solve in current iteration of PLD as I proved in the answers I gave to you. The only thing you need to do is instead of pressing Divine Veil when the castbar is in front of you, you just have to think 6 GCDs ahead.

Right after burst window you should have 3x atonement followed by 1 2 3 > 3x atonement > 1 2 so that is 12 GCD including the holy spirit itself, with using Divine Veil right at the very last GCD of FoF you can save a Divine Veil usage for 30 seconds.

The cases of having 2 raidwide being 45-90s apart from each other is extremely common in any savage floor. I think you are severely underestimating the amount of raidwides happening at 1 minute interval. Like just open any fight timeline, every single one of them have raidwides that are spaced pretty close together. And yeah PLD isn't really lacking in party mit with PoA, but at the same time why homogenize yet another skill? Old DV with current rotation is only cumbersome if you can't bother to plan 6 GCD ahead of the raidwide.

And I really don't think that PLD party mit is too OP, as in no one have ever cried that PLD have one too many party mitigations to the point where the raid itself is demanding PLD to be there so you can survive a raidwide.

[ForteNightshade]

While I can't speak for everyone who had an opinion about rotations back then, I am assuming that you are being cheeky in how you are referring to me and my misgivings about having PLD changed, yes?

Not at you, specifically. Just the general sentiment that changing a job for the majority is a bad thing when this precise same viewpoint was okay when it happened to jobs people who disliked their previous iterations.

This makes no sense to me. I'll give you an example. On P8s, with old veil, you could cast during countdown, mit the first raidwide, and have it back up to mit the second raidwide; particularly if it was dog. And if you were doing the optimal rotation, it would line up beautifully with your casting phase. Meaning, you didn't even have to worry about triggering it. You can't do that anymore. So now, at least as far as raidwide mitigation is concerned, you bring less to the table. Old veil just required a bit of planning, which should always be happening anyways in endgame content. And they still could have maintained that functionality with the the offensive rotation changes. If anything, it would have been even easier to trigger veil. This whole rework has been an abject failure.

That first raid wide is comically over-mitigated because you should have either E.Prog or Spreadlo along with Reprisal and any of the other tank mits can just be thrown up pre-pull. Nevertheless, I'll grant you it's still free mitigation that is no longer possible—in a single fight at a point that isn't wholly needed. Meanwhile, in most other fights this supposed "advantage" often leads to old Veil simply sitting around doing precisely nothing because healers won't proc it at the cost of their damage unless it's absolutely necessary. So if old Veil doesn't conveniently line up with a Paladin's magic phase and a raidwide, it's essentially useless. Considering how often such a scenario occurs, the new application is simply better.

Agree to disagree. That is exactly how an MMO should work. For me it's a team effort.

Mitigation and defensive tools can't be reliant on other players because it takes away any agency you have. Ask any Dark Knight prior to 6.1 the thrill that had doing P3S. Pretty much every PF strat required both tanks to invuln. So healers knew Living Dead needed to be heal. Was it? Nope! I and many Dark Knights can attest to be left to die to their own invuln because healers either couldn't heal it or simply refused. While Veil was nowhere near as punishing, the same principle applies. In nearly every scenario, it was ignored due to the raidwides not hitting hard enough to necessitate extra shielding. Especially not when it came at the cost of damage. You can turn your nose up at people for refusing to lose one GCD. I'd rather have consistency.

[DoubleOneOne]

In any cases, if you really wanted to save a use, you would need to be able to use Divine Veil in that 20 second window, which is incredibly niche.
Yes, it happens as you say with P8SP2, but that's one case, it doesn't apply everywhere.
Having to proc Divine Veil isn't a team effort, it's a responsibility.

Can confirm P8SP1, P8SP2, and P7S all had Veil uptime strats. And P7S specifically did not want/need a healer to early pop it ever. Then again you are right, not EVERY fight could use the ability to burst mitigation like old veil could. How many did you test?

I'm glad they took the ability to delay away thou. I hated thinking about what buttons I want to push for more than 15-30 seconds at a time every 1 or 2 minutes.

[DoubleOneOne]

Mitigation and defensive tools can't be reliant on other players because it takes away any agency you have. Ask any Dark Knight prior to 6.1 the thrill that had doing P3S. Pretty much every PF strat required both tanks to invuln. So healers knew Living Dead needed to be heal. Was it? Nope! I and many Dark Knights can attest to be left to die to their own invuln because healers either couldn't heal it or simply refused. While Veil was nowhere near as punishing, the same principle applies. In nearly every scenario, it was ignored due to the raidwides not hitting hard enough to necessitate extra shielding. Especially not when it came at the cost of damage. You can turn your nose up at people for refusing to lose one GCD. I'd rather have consistency.

Your right, PLD has never had the ability to GCD heal itself mid rotation to activate Veil on it's own. I really wish WAR wasn't the only tank with self heals. Oh maybe they should make Clemency part of PLD core rotation. It could be like on a charge system or something. Oh oh and make it so that you can move it around in your rotation with out breaking combo. Yeah I like that idea. I hope they add it to PLD soon.

[ForteNightshade]

Your right, PLD has never had the ability to GCD heal itself mid rotation to activate Veil on it's own. I really wish WAR wasn't the only tank with self heals. Oh maybe they should make Clemency part of PLD core rotation. It could be like on a charge system or something. Oh oh and make it so that you can move it around in your rotation with out breaking combo. Yeah I like that idea. I hope they add it to PLD soon.

I know you intended this as a cheeky little "gotcha" but you're unironically suggesting Paladin's sacrifice damage to proc mitigation that is never going to be required. And you mean for this to be a defense in favor of old Veil? If healers won't proc Veil what makes you think Paladins would? Especially when it would impact their rotation far worse. At least their old one. No self respecting Paladin is ever touching Clemency outside of absolute desperation scenarios. They certainly aren't using it on Veil.

Meanwhile, the other tanks just press their mitigation without throwing away damage for no discernable reason.

[ICountFrom0]

I'd be up for old paladin.

I loved being able to sprint and spend my TP, and then grab agro with MP, was such an advantage.
Once I was firm in my agro, some TP would come back and I'd start doing my primary damage combo on each monster until I noticed that I was starting to lose agro, then I'd whip put my FLASH a while again.
I almost never had to use my AGRO combo, and with good groups who would spread out damage I could even keep myself in combat stance instead of tank stance.


...

What, not THAT old of paladin?