PLD changes; thoughts?

[Lyth]

Players in general dislike change, and reworks will always be controversial.

The bigger question to ask is what has been removed. PLD has consistently had by far the most bloated action counts out of any tank, as a relic of the Stormblood rework. The reason why PLD has one less 'personal' defensive ability than the other tanks (from the set of Camo/Thrill/DM) is because it has one extra raidwide defensive with PoA. There's mention in the Famitsu article about trigger conditions being a problem with PLD. This makes me wonder if Bulwark is going to replace DV with PoA taking over as the job specific raidwide defensive.

I also wonder what's going to become of the lifesteal on Holy Spirit, now that you'll have one after every combo. It'll be interesting to see if the bonus cast is interchangeable with Clemency.

[Rithy255]

Players in general dislike change, and reworks will always be controversial.

The bigger question to ask is what has been removed. PLD has consistently had by far the most bloated action counts out of any tank, as a relic of the Stormblood rework. The reason why PLD has one less 'personal' defensive ability than the other tanks (from the set of Camo/Thrill/DM) is because it has one extra raidwide defensive with PoA. There's mention in the Famitsu article about trigger conditions being a problem with PLD. This makes me wonder if Bulwark is going to replace DV with PoA taking over as the job specific raidwide defensive.

I also wonder what's going to become of the lifesteal on Holy Spirit, now that you'll have one after every combo. It'll be interesting to see if the bonus cast is interchangeable with Clemency.

I understand the general dislike, I think a lot of people got to realise that while current PLD is fun to a lot of people (me included), but that the job just doesn't fit under the current game, the benefits it does provide are lacking right now, a lot of the outcry about "2 minute meta" comes from people who will also complain about dps differences, 2 minute meta like it or not was a result in a lot of complaints people made, now jobs such as PLD cannot really exist inside the meta, the PLD rework makes a lot of sense from the ground up as its generally been known as the jank least popular tank job for a while now.

I think they will likely make veil shake it off it seems way easier to fix it that way then remove it, I don't know about POA, I'm either thinking it's likely going to be similar to white mage wings or it could be removed, I think they would have mentioned out right important removing stuff, I don't think PLD would be "busted" if it had two raid wides eitherway.

With space they might likely make req turn into confit, I think this makes the most sense, they could also be removing shield bash or something like that, I feel like they're definitely going to "make space" for Bulwark one way or another. I think they could also make more space with reworking holy spirit into a cleave, now that Holy shelltron isn't a block you could also make Holy shelltron targetable (removing intervention), theirs so many space changers which can happen.

[Lyth]

I don't really think that the 'two minute meta' was the problem. If it was just a matter of damage output, then that would have been iteratively addressed with potencies. The real problem is that players were using the age old 'complexity' argument to justify why PLD should have a dps advantage over the other tanks, in a throwback to its Stormblood launch glory days. It's unsurprising that this is the result. GLD and MRD are the two tank classes that complete beginners have access to on booting up the game for the first time, and if the 'general perception' is that they're 'too complex', then that's a problem. You're deterring new players from tanking.

The dps will likely be rebalanced anyways. But the primary goal of this rework is accessibility. And if you were satisfied with the level of 'challenge' that the job previously provided, you can thank this very subforum for wielding the Monkey's Paw in such a spectacularly predictable fashion.

That being said, I think PLD did need a second look. Some design elements like DV's activation were just clunky, and others are just vestigial (i.e. Shield Bash, as you've mentioned). While DV itself is simple to fix (just make it activate like Shake), I think that it's hard to justify the additional raidwide mitigation tool over other tanks, especially when you consider how important those raidwides can be. And they're likely going to be looking at ways to bring button counts back to the average, rather than keep them inflated.

[Rithy255]

It was generally 2 minute "meta" that changed the PLD, as they saw it not really perform under raid buffs as well, to be fair they would have likely at least made adjustments to PLD's defensives as they're very lacking either way, but I feel like they woulda changed PLD sooner if they had more plans to (I just feel like the 2 minute meta painted a big red rework here sign on PLDS back).

I think PLD's likely to keep their raid wides still, while it would be strong it's not outright busted, keep in PLD does actually suffer from still having the longest invul in the game (unless they change that), I think divine veil is a safe bet that it will stay, passage of arms seems to be a bit harder to rework into a functional ability, I don't really know though again i think they could just borrow a bit from white mage here, either way I think we will still have two raid wides, could be totally wrong here, but I don't think PLD would even need a reduction in raid wides. Though I could just see them remove passage of arms if they really felt like PLD would be too good? I don't know really doesn't seem needed.

I think they will be making space theirs so many things they will remove for "bloat reasons" before raid wides, Shield bash? likely gone, cover might be reworked or removed (finally it just needs something?), cutting down on hotbar actions by merging (such as req turning into confit, holy spirit cleaving, Holy shelltron/intervention merge) I could at least think of 4-5 abilities that would/could be done before cutting down actually important stuff to the job.

I don't mind the changes too much from what we've seen (I'm indeed not a PLD spreedsheet gamer sadly) personally, I'm pretty sad that dots are gone, I just hope atonement and alternating combos aren't gone, I like PLD's for its general different combos and buttons, while PLD is currently a bit strict and set it's also very varied in how it feels compared to something like war/drk, I understand the rework and if they want to add stuff like holy spirits mid rotation and try things that might give it a more "lose" feel I'm fine with it aslong as it feels fun and enjoyable, but at the same time I do worry if the rework does feel the same as other tanks, Not to mention i felt like PLD's identity as a "shield tank" really didn't feel right being so weak defensively

[Gserpent]

That being said, I think PLD did need a second look. Some design elements like DV's activation were just clunky, and others are just vestigial (i.e. Shield Bash, as you've mentioned). While DV itself is simple to fix (just make it activate like Shake), I think that it's hard to justify the additional raidwide mitigation tool over other tanks, especially when you consider how important those raidwides can be. And they're likely going to be looking at ways to bring button counts back to the average, rather than keep them inflated.

Maybe a hot take, but I don't think stuff like Shield Bash should be removed. I think it's perfectly fine to have buttons that have no application to raid gameplay, because removing those buttons removes opportunities to find uses for them in non-raid gameplay. Criterion is an opportunity to have trash etc that are actually enjoyable to deal with, but they *can't* really do that due to the lack of utility among most classes.

[RyuuZero]

because removing those buttons removes opportunities

as a Samurai Player, this is my Main Problem with FFXIV's current Gameplay Direction. But I don't wanna comment here with that wash right now.
Imo I thought they just would remove FoF and Req, turn them into Traits, getting a flatout stronger 1-2-3 Combo and the Removal of Cast Times.
though I love the Confiteur Combo (of course), I'm not really a fan of pressing the same Button 4times (because I already do this in the combat macros, I written myself and are oGCDs unlike the Confiteur Combo which are GCDs...)
.. so why not Press Confiteur and after that the 1-2-3 Combo turns into the Valor Combo.. oh and another thing I noticed that the Valor DoT and Scorn DoT working side by side and the Goring DoT and the Scorn DoT working side by side.. but Goring and Valor!? NOPE!.. clunky.. well the Goring and Valor DoTs getting gutted so I better sell my ideas to some fanfic author or something.. another thing I'm thinking about was why Spirits Within doesn't share the Cool Down with Scorn?.. well okay since Spirits has become Expiacion it's kind of like Circle of Scorn without the DoT.. huh.. well imo Expiacion is a redundant Skill.. but as Tanks we do not really need to care about Single Target/AoE Situations so I think that's why they turned a Single Target Skill into an AoE Skill.. and yeah I agree that DV should just work like Shake, it's kinda cute that you have to activate it by getting healed but not even recieving the def cd as the Caster was stupid..

Sorry for my Paladin Change fanfiction, but I felt like writting something.

[ForsakenRoe]

Maybe Req is deleted, and Confiteor is a flat 60s CD that triggers Blades, so that's a replacement 10s duration combo for the raidbuff window? So our combo use would either be Confiteor, 2 Gorings and 3 RAs, or Confiteor, 3 Gorings, 2 RAs, based on how much MP restore Blade combo and Atonement combo give us. This would also allow us to shift the RA and Goring's around within that 50s, to better accomodate downtime (assuming they don't just make the bosses 100% uptime for the rest of forever)

Boredom struck

Maybe I should apply to SE for 'number balancing guy' position, it doesn't seem all too difficult (rotation on left is 'slow PLD loop', first minute. Only difference between minutes 1 2 and 3 in the rotation is how many Royal vs Atones are in FOF, but since they're equal potency, doesn't affect the maths). This assumes the following: FOF is dead, Req is now a GCD that later upgrades into Confiteor, Conf/Blades are zero MP cost, Holy Spirit costs 2000MP, Royal and Atonement generate 500MP each, the rest of the required MP to stay MP neutral coming from natural regen. If Req remains as an OGCD that allows 4 Holy Spirits to be empowered, then potencies would be different. You'll have to mentally replace one 'Fast, Riot, Goring, HolySpirit' block with 'Req, HS x4'. If they had told us which moves were removed/kept, but nope, so I'm going with my copium. Yes it looks more bland to play than the DOT version, take it up with SE not me. Also yes Confiteor combo is 4 hits of 1000 potency in a row, we have to make the class have a strong bUrSt wInDoW so take that up with SE too

edit: actually instead of buffing Intervene if people really want their 100 potency, buff Atonement by 50 per use, since it's used twice per loop

[Rithy255]

Maybe a hot take, but I don't think stuff like Shield Bash should be removed. I think it's perfectly fine to have buttons that have no application to raid gameplay, because removing those buttons removes opportunities to find uses for them in non-raid gameplay. Criterion is an opportunity to have trash etc that are actually enjoyable to deal with, but they *can't* really do that due to the lack of utility among most classes.

and you're against clemency why? like what even. Clemency even has more use cases inside raids and inside solo content, criterion, deep dungeons.

[ForsakenRoe]

and you're against clemency why? like what even. Clemency even has more use cases inside raids and inside solo content, criterion, deep dungeons.

Clemency: now a trait called Knight's Clemency. When Sheltron's effect times out, or is overwritten, instantly heals the PLD for 500 cure potency. When Intervention times out or is overwritten, instantly heals the target for 500 cure potency, and the PLD for 250 cure potency. Once Holy Sheltron is learned, Knight's Clemency instant healing is applied alongside Knight's Benediction regen, for a total of 1500 cure potency per use of Holy Sheltron or Intervention.

I'm on a roll, but the question is if it's a good roll or a bad one

[fulminating]

.. oh and another thing I noticed that the Valor DoT and Scorn DoT working side by side and the Goring DoT and the Scorn DoT working side by side.. but Goring and Valor!? NOPE!.. clunky..

Isn’t that just because the blade combo occupies the gcds where you reapply goring in the shadowbringers rotation? CoS is entirely separate.