PLD changes; thoughts?

[Duskane]

I actually suspect, if they are adding Bulwark back, they will remove something to make it fit. A strong contender would be Cover.

shield bash and wouldnt be surprising if Req was axed in favor of the rework and conf/sword combo is just a sticker mechanic on PLD gauge

[Puremallace]

No comment until I can actually play it. Removing DoTs is more homogenization to me.

[HyperiusUltima]

No comment until I can actually play it. Removing DoTs is more homogenization to me.

I wouldn't call it homogenization when it's directly causing the job to underperform due to rigidity of a rotation. Look at Shadowbringers SMN - it did good damage, but one death and it was severely punishing. With PLD, it's not the same, but it's still shown in the fact that DoTs haven't interacted well with PLD's rotation, causing stringent issues to crop up like Atonement Drift, which moves the FoF Window further out of Raid Buffs while you're trying to keep the DoT lined up with it for the end of the Physical Rotation. At least 25% of PLD's damage is from DoTs as well - with the removal of DoTs, it allows PLD to be a bit more free in regards to FoF usage, not having to worry about DoT upkeep all the time when it comes to timing between BoT and Goring(which you did clip a good bit of the time anyhow).

A lot of people are fearmongering about "Oh it's going to become just like WAR!" because of how the development team has treated DRK when in reality it's not going to be with the changes they're already making to its kit.

Take a look a current PLD, and tell me: Do you see something that isn't clunky or missing?

- 2 Burst Windows(FoF and Req)
- 63s rotation
- Missing a whole defensive
- Lackluster/Situational Abilities(Veil, Cover, Passage)

I think this is going to be a better rework for PLD when it comes to taking damage and could potentially fix rotational issues that caused it to underperform(outside of fight design). From the site that shall not be named, GNB/DRK have been the go-to tanks due to the DPS Checks this tier, especially during Week 1 due to P8S's very tight enrage before the HP nerf.

[moroarda]

I wouldn't call it homogenization when it's directly causing the job to underperform due to rigidity of a rotation. Look at Shadowbringers SMN - it did good damage, but one death and it was severely punishing. With PLD, it's not the same, but it's still shown in the fact that DoTs haven't interacted well with PLD's rotation, causing stringent issues to crop up like Atonement Drift, which moves the FoF Window further out of Raid Buffs while you're trying to keep the DoT lined up with it for the end of the Physical Rotation. At least 25% of PLD's damage is from DoTs as well - with the removal of DoTs, it allows PLD to be a bit more free in regards to FoF usage, not having to worry about DoT upkeep all the time when it comes to timing between BoT and Goring(which you did clip a good bit of the time anyhow).

A lot of people are fearmongering about "Oh it's going to become just like WAR!" because of how the development team has treated DRK when in reality it's not going to be with the changes they're already making to its kit.

Take a look a current PLD, and tell me: Do you see something that isn't clunky or missing?

- 2 Burst Windows(FoF and Req)
- 63s rotation
- Missing a whole defensive
- Lackluster/Situational Abilities(Veil, Cover, Passage)

I think this is going to be a better rework for PLD when it comes to taking damage and could potentially fix rotational issues that caused it to underperform(outside of fight design). From the site that shall not be named, GNB/DRK have been the go-to tanks due to the DPS Checks this tier, especially during Week 1 due to P8S's very tight enrage before the HP nerf.

I'm confused as to how this impacts whether or not something is homogenization.

Homogenization is the trend of things becoming more alike. The changes, as they've been spoken about so far and in the context of SE who seem to really enjoy homogenization (just ask healers), seem to lean towards another WAR copy/paste.

Just because that damage model works better within the 2min meta than PLD's current one doesn't change the fact that if they go in that direction with PLD it will objectively be homogenizing.

This reply reads as, "it can't be homogenization, because here is a way in which it could also be a positive," but like... no one is saying it won't potentially be good for PLD's dps numbers, people are complaining about the idea of WAR #3. Those are different complaints.

[HyperiusUltima]

people are complaining about the idea of WAR #3. Those are different complaints.

It's not going to be WAR #3. Both DRK and WAR run the same thing - They rely upon a gauge for their damaging abilities Fell Cleave and Bloodspiller(Shadow for DRK as well). PLD is different in that it relies upon a gauge for defensive cooldowns and reacts differently to tankbusters. If you're worried Req is going to be just doing a big hit, then yeah - it's been that way since Shadowbringers and SE doesn't want to change it. Big Number go BRRR and such. But the design of PLD isn't changing as much as people think. I understand how my reply can be portrayed as that, but people are always first to fear whenever SE touches a job due to past problems(DRK becoming a WAR clone in ShB, SAM losing Kaiten) without looking at things objectively. No matter what you do to a job, people are going to complain about tit or tat. That's a given at this point.

I feel like people's main worry is that with DoTs removed from the job, it's going to lose all semblance of what they expect to be complexity. DoTs on PLD weren't complex however; they were straight-forward, but screwed with its rotation due to the 63s rotation that PLD is notorious for when it comes to Atonement Drift. Most complaints about PLD before this change was announced was around how Skill Speed was a definitive issue next to Holy Spirit being 2.5 the entire time while your actual GCD was lower, thus causing your DoTs to also drift should FoF drift from the Raid Buff Window. The removal of DoTs is to remove the stress that DoTs are placing on PLD's rotation, and allowing them to more effectively apply their damage without being stuck within a strict time window to add in party buffs. With the change, I'd imagine we'd be using FoF as soon as it comes off CD than preparing a GCD for the buff itself.

[ForsakenRoe]

Too soon, we lack critical informations.

Gauge generation?
Will it be changed to not punish PLD when it can't auto attack.

What's the point of Goring blade now?
If it has no dots, we'll just spam the highest potency combo.

There's way too much question and as long as we don't have the tooltip, we can't make a correct judgement.

The whole 'we will give exact values at a later date' thing is really annoying at times like this, but here's my copium: Goring>HS is a MP dump, and we're MP negative now (Riot Blade no longer gives MP). RA>Atonement is our MP restore combo, but is lower potency. Thus, our gameplay revolves around 'restore MP outside of burst windows, so you have enough to Req inside burst window (and to Goring>HS when needed). This would also allow for some tricks like 'I'll restore MP earlier, so I can get a Holy Spirit banked for this GCD of downtime here', potentially. FOF's probably dead to compensate for this, which is probably fine in this context.

Copium is that POA applies it's effect in a circle, because people L O V E to dodge that cone AOE when we OGCD weave it for a split second. With the change to Goring>HS we already know, we'll be able to get a HS (and therefore it's healing component) once every 10sec, which is a big buff to the PLD selfsustain, but also allows us to force-proc Veil every 4 GCDs, unless we're unable to cos MP.

Some are saying 'HS proc will just be GNB ammo spender' which I can see, but ironically, I'm actually hoping for it to be like Raiju, spend it on the next GCD or lose it. This would turn it into a sort of '4 step GCD combo', and assuming we're changed to get one Atonement instead of three from Royal, we'd have two 4 step combos to work through, where every other tank has 3 step combos, which would feel at least a little different. The DRG of tanks, as it were. It'd also mean that we've got a 10s long combo, so 4 of those is 40s, then 4 Holy Spirits, Confiteor, Blade x 3, that's another 20s for our burst window, and that's the full 60s rotation solved. Though, they might change things up a bit regarding Req, so it's easier to get the Blade part of the burst into the raidbuffs (it's a bit hard to get all 8 GCDs since they dont scale with skillspeed).

Maybe Req is deleted, and Confiteor is a flat 60s CD that triggers Blades, so that's a replacement 10s duration combo for the raidbuff window? So our combo use would either be Confiteor, 2 Gorings and 3 RAs, or Confiteor, 3 Gorings, 2 RAs, based on how much MP restore Blade combo and Atonement combo give us. This would also allow us to shift the RA and Goring's around within that 50s, to better accomodate downtime (assuming they don't just make the bosses 100% uptime for the rest of forever)

[HyperiusUltima]

The whole 'we will give exact values at a later date' thing is really annoying at times like this, but here's my copium: Goring>HS is a MP dump, and we're MP negative now (Riot Blade no longer gives MP). RA>Atonement is our MP restore combo, but is lower potency. Thus, our gameplay revolves around 'restore MP outside of burst windows, so you have enough to Req inside burst window (and to Goring>HS when needed). This would also allow for some tricks like 'I'll restore MP earlier, so I can get a Holy Spirit banked for this GCD of downtime here', potentially. FOF's probably dead to compensate for this, which is probably fine in this context.

Copium is that POA applies it's effect in a circle, because people L O V E to dodge that cone AOE when we OGCD weave it for a split second. With the change to Goring>HS we already know, we'll be able to get a HS (and therefore it's healing component) once every 10sec, which is a big buff to the PLD selfsustain, but also allows us to force-proc Veil every 4 GCDs, unless we're unable to cos MP.

Some are saying 'HS proc will just be GNB ammo spender' which I can see, but ironically, I'm actually hoping for it to be like Raiju, spend it on the next GCD or lose it. This would turn it into a sort of '4 step GCD combo', and assuming we're changed to get one Atonement instead of three from Royal, we'd have two 4 step combos to work through, where every other tank has 3 step combos, which would feel at least a little different. The DRG of tanks, as it were. It'd also mean that we've got a 10s long combo, so 4 of those is 40s, then 4 Holy Spirits, Confiteor, Blade x 3, that's another 20s for our burst window, and that's the full 60s rotation solved. Though, they might change things up a bit regarding Req, so it's easier to get the Blade part of the burst into the raidbuffs (it's a bit hard to get all 8 GCDs since they dont scale with skillspeed).

Maybe Req is deleted, and Confiteor is a flat 60s CD that triggers Blades, so that's a replacement 10s duration combo for the raidbuff window? So our combo use would either be Confiteor, 2 Gorings and 3 RAs, or Confiteor, 3 Gorings, 2 RAs, based on how much MP restore Blade combo and Atonement combo give us. This would also allow us to shift the RA and Goring's around within that 50s, to better accomodate downtime (assuming they don't just make the bosses 100% uptime for the rest of forever)

I'm hoping they go with something like this to keep PLD's flexibility and expand upon it. Even if this is theorycrafting, it's a good idea since there is a thing as mechanical downtime. Whichever route they go, I'm looking forward to seeing it since this looks like a good change is coming.

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm hoping they go with something like this to keep PLD's flexibility and expand upon it. Even if this is theorycrafting, it's a good idea since there is a thing as mechanical downtime. Whichever route they go, I'm looking forward to seeing it since this looks like a good change is coming.

If they go with exactly what I think it'll turn out as, I think I'd actually be rather satisfied with it, so I hope I'm fairly on the mark. The idea of having MP management as a core gameplay concept on the tank that has a Magic focused half of it's rotation seems like a good (and tbh obvious) design choice, and phases of 'you can't target boss' would actually benefit PLD in that regard, as MP restores over time, leading to less RA>Atones to restore MP and more Goring>HS to spend it, more damage. Just wish they'd do something about Clemency

[ForsakenRoe]

Maybe Req is deleted, and Confiteor is a flat 60s CD that triggers Blades, so that's a replacement 10s duration combo for the raidbuff window? So our combo use would either be Confiteor, 2 Gorings and 3 RAs, or Confiteor, 3 Gorings, 2 RAs, based on how much MP restore Blade combo and Atonement combo give us. This would also allow us to shift the RA and Goring's around within that 50s, to better accomodate downtime (assuming they don't just make the bosses 100% uptime for the rest of forever)

Boredom struck

Maybe I should apply to SE for 'number balancing guy' position, it doesn't seem all too difficult (rotation on left is 'slow PLD loop', first minute. Only difference between minutes 1 2 and 3 in the rotation is how many Royal vs Atones are in FOF, but since they're equal potency, doesn't affect the maths). This assumes the following: FOF is dead, Req is now a GCD that later upgrades into Confiteor, Conf/Blades are zero MP cost, Holy Spirit costs 2000MP, Royal and Atonement generate 500MP each, the rest of the required MP to stay MP neutral coming from natural regen. If Req remains as an OGCD that allows 4 Holy Spirits to be empowered, then potencies would be different. You'll have to mentally replace one 'Fast, Riot, Goring, HolySpirit' block with 'Req, HS x4'. If they had told us which moves were removed/kept, but nope, so I'm going with my copium. Yes it looks more bland to play than the DOT version, take it up with SE not me. Also yes Confiteor combo is 4 hits of 1000 potency in a row, we have to make the class have a strong bUrSt wInDoW so take that up with SE too

edit: actually instead of buffing Intervene if people really want their 100 potency, buff Atonement by 50 per use, since it's used twice per loop

[Iedarus]

I'm a little spooked because of the DoT removal, but PLD is one of those jobs where having a DoT isn't really crucial to its identity so I'll give it a pass. Everything else looks good, though. Personally I don't care about the two minute burst as long as the job is at least FUN. Looking at you, healers. >.>