Paladin Updates

[Phobos]

As an ardent PLD player and supporter, I'm going to have to disagree with several points here.

Firstly, there are some situations where you will be forced to low HP. PLD and WAR alike are still subject to DYING. They are just as mortal as any other class, it simply takes a greater amount of damage to get them to a lifeless state. There are plenty of attacks that can drop you from low white to red. Also, neither Aegis Boon nor Divine Veil will save you from magic damage.

What I DO believe, is that PLD has much more self-substantiation than WAR. I believe PLD can maintain control over hate.

The problem is that WAR can be substantiated by sources outside of it's own abilities (i.e. WHM) and it also has solid hate control while contributing damage.

If someone argues that a PLD CAN'T tank something or they are useless, then they are simply being dense and closed minded. A PLD can perform just fine, it just isn't the most efficient means.

I'm not arguing that WAR is better for the job. Currently, it simply is. I do take issue with people who assume PLD can't do it at all, just because it doesn't do it like WAR.

Hate to double post but you say it all here. Agree almost 100%. I used PLD some last night and can say now that it's definitely better than GLA (which it was not before). With the SW change and DV change I feel like I'm helping the party much more than before. I did some Ifrit runs and only lost hate once to my WAR friend because I had apparently been lazy on voke/flash.

Before DV was like a funny joke ability that you press when you're safe to not die from ability lock (you know, like outmaneuver), now you spam it whenever it's up (along with outmaneuver!)

Hearing over vent "what's this divine regen thing?" was kinda nice too.

On a side-note for the GLA vs PLD aspect (hasn't been mentioned in a while) I actually did notice it seems as though the class vs job intention is intact here. I was soloing the Zan'rak coffer mob and had a very rough time on PLD, whereas GLA seems much safer.

All-in-all I say good progress, and I'm with you on the fact that PLD can now tank. And I think most of us are getting it right here that they need to give us a reason for this lower HP otherwise WAR will remain the preferred tank (even though now PLD can) as it's a bit safer from the big magic attacks.

[Phobos]

I know what AoE means, and even if AoE Rampart generates more hate due to more people getting hit by it, it doesn't change the fact that it's not even nearly the biggest hate puller...not even close...a stupid Provoke generates more hate then Rampart, so does Flash, so does our Enmity Combo...so does almost anything hate related in the game...

Simple test. Group of mobs...let a BLM Firaga or Flare them. Use Rampart, you won't even get yellow on them. Use Provoke/Flash and it goes yellow, using both it goes red.

Now the best part about this. On WAR use Collusion on the BLM before he uses Firaga/Flare...all mobs blinking red for you...what's better?

And just to counter the stupid arguments that you won't Collusion a BLM mid fight...yeah we won't cause he's out of range for us to get the hate effect, since your target needs to be close to you.

Idk how others do it, but whoever is MNK in my group, I annoucne Collusion CD is gonna be up in a few seconds, MNK replies with whenever he is ready for his Dragon Kick combo and right before Blindside Dragon Kick I use Collusion on him. This alone is worth more then 4 Ramparts used in a row...

Nobody ever denied that PLD get's his shit done as well...the fact is that WAR get's it done better in each and every single part of being a tank.

And here I go triple posting...

I would be much more apt to use Cover a lot if it did something comparable to Collusion. Right now it feels like If I use cover and the person I covered does something stupid I could die. I'd rather just toss them a succor (my opinion of succor has changed drastically overnight) and keep us both safe.

[Evaddaragon]

PLD should be so much better than WAR at tanking that there isn't even a discussion about it.

But... why should we have only ONE tank ? So that we only use this one ? If WAR can't tank, while not being as good as DPS as DRG or MNK at close range, then it's WAR that won't be used.

While PLD is my favorite job, I also have a 50 WAR and I also love it. The way I see it, a lot of people seem to want PLD to blow WAR out of the water... then what's going to happen next ? People will complain that WAR is "useless".

I suppose giving PLD magic damage mitigation would indeed be nice... But even if that happens, people are still going to say "WAR has more HP and deals more damage". Then what's next ? Make PLD a DD/tank hybrid like WAR ?

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

[Luhy]

If SE wants to keep going down the subtle route, but actually wants PLD to be used, I suggest giving the WHM spell Regen or maybe Divine Veil the effect of Spell Interruption rate-75%, converting damage blocked by Cover into MP so people will want to use it and either reducing the cast time or increasing the potency of Holy Succor.

I feel strongly about Cover converting damage into MP. It has always been a poor ability. Normally, by the time you select a target for it, you could have done other things to get hate back. This allows PLD to turn into a pseudo-healer during things like Morbol speed run and lets them take damage for MNKs while curing them for hate and regaining MP. It gives them a number of purposes and would even make PLD fun in PvP.

[Alerith]

Theres always other stuff u can do then endgame... but u already found that out which is complaining... And if endgame is the only thing that matters then do what most ppl do and get with it.

It seems you don't grasp sarcasm very well. I understand it's a difficult thing to identify via the internet, but come now.

[Phobos]

But... why should we have only ONE tank ? So that we only use this one ? If WAR can't tank, while not being as good as DPS as DRG or MNK at close range, then it's WAR that won't be used.
...
I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I agree, and I've said this in quite a few posts though I neglected to mention it in that last one. WAR should be capable of tanking, it just shouldn't be better than PLD in ANY aspect of tanking. WAR is a DD, and right now it's also a tank. PLD is a tank. This would be like if BRD could cure better than WHM and all the BRD were like "no we should be able to heal too". It should be something you CAN do, but you shouldn't be better than the job who's ONLY role is to do it.

I've never said I don't think WAR should be able to tank. I think it would be quite horrible for parties if they HAD to get a PLD to tank. WAR should be capable, but not the best. People should be compelled to invite a PLD, but not restricted to needing a PLD.

[Alerith]

Hate to double post but you say it all here. Agree almost 100%. I used PLD some last night and can say now that it's definitely better than GLA (which it was not before). With the SW change and DV change I feel like I'm helping the party much more than before. I did some Ifrit runs and only lost hate once to my WAR friend because I had apparently been lazy on voke/flash.

Before DV was like a funny joke ability that you press when you're safe to not die from ability lock (you know, like outmaneuver), now you spam it whenever it's up (along with outmaneuver!)

Hearing over vent "what's this divine regen thing?" was kinda nice too.

On a side-note for the GLA vs PLD aspect (hasn't been mentioned in a while) I actually did notice it seems as though the class vs job intention is intact here. I was soloing the Zan'rak coffer mob and had a very rough time on PLD, whereas GLA seems much safer.

All-in-all I say good progress, and I'm with you on the fact that PLD can now tank. And I think most of us are getting it right here that they need to give us a reason for this lower HP otherwise WAR will remain the preferred tank (even though now PLD can) as it's a bit safer from the big magic attacks.

All PLD needs at this point is more HP and/or for Defense to be worth a damn, and some Magic Defense. Goring Blade and Spirit's Within serve as REASONABLE damage for a tank class, in my opinion.

But... why should we have only ONE tank ? So that we only use this one ? If WAR can't tank, while not being as good as DPS as DRG or MNK at close range, then it's WAR that won't be used.

While PLD is my favorite job, I also have a 50 WAR and I also love it. The way I see it, a lot of people seem to want PLD to blow WAR out of the water... then what's going to happen next ? People will complain that WAR is "useless".

I suppose giving PLD magic damage mitigation would indeed be nice... But even if that happens, people are still going to say "WAR has more HP and deals more damage". Then what's next ? Make PLD a DD/tank hybrid like WAR ?

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I, personally, would not be happy with PLD getting more DD potential. Because with more DD potential comes sacrifice in other areas to keep it balanced.

I play PLD for a strong defensive class, and I think it should perform as such.

Phobos is right that PLD should far outshine WAR in it's tanking, because they are two different types of tanks. (In theory. So far SE hasn't gotten the barance right.)

PLD should far excel against a single, hard hitting enemy. PLD should be far superior to WAR for this situation.
WAR should far excel against multiple, not-so-hard hitting enemies. WAR should be far superior to PLD for this situation.

Nobody is asking for ONE tank. We simply want these two classes to specialize in different forms of tanking, where one is always better than the other for certain situations.

[Phobos]

PLD should far excel against a single, hard hitting enemy. PLD should be far superior to WAR for this situation.
WAR should far excel against multiple, not-so-hard hitting enemies. WAR should be far superior to PLD for this situation.

This, I think, is a key point most people who suggest this fail to address. Most people give this BS argument that PLD should be single target tank and WAR multi-target tank. I think what you suggest actually works somewhat well, but I still say, PLD should be better at both maintaining enmity and taking less damage in ANY situation. In this situation, WAR would just be better because the damage taken would be small enough that it wouldn't matter. I think the key comes in that it's not needed for trash mobs, so the extra DD WAR provides becomes more of an asset than what PLD brings to the table.

Again, I think PLD should be better than WAR at tanking, but WAR should be capable of tanking. There should be no form of tanking that WAR is better at, its just in the trash mob situation, WAR's DD capabilities become more useful because taking less damage is less useful.

EDIT: Just to clarify here, this is where I feel the DoW's stand, and should stand.
BRD is a solid ranged DD that offers some party support options. It can calm down on DD and heal others if need be.
DRG is the glass cannon, and can shed enmity with some of its' abilities. Good DD that keeps itself alive through enmity control rather than defense.
MNK is the elemental and additional effect specialist. Good DD and can do some interesting stuff.
WAR is the defensive DD. Good DD and capable of taking some hits. If the PLD goes down the party isn't going to fail because this guy is here to save the day. Able to deal more damage but also concentrate on defensive skills when needed.
PLD is the tank. Good enmity generation and defensive measures, poor damage.

This is how things should be. Right now the problem is the balance between WAR and PLD.

EDIT 2:

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I don't think you get the point here. You say we want PLD to be WAR with a sword and shield, and that our complaining will just nerf WAR. The point is WAR should not be the primary tank. WAR is fine where it is for now, maybe in later stages it could get a nerf. Balance jobs against each other by buffing them, then perhaps nerf them based on content difficulty (though I don't see a problem with WAR right now myself).

At any rate, nobody is saying you can't make PLD strong enough. This update was just abilities, the true problem is the lack of traits. PLD had this promise of increased defense with decreased HP, but all we got was decreased HP. Any boost defense gives in the game's current state pales in comparison to WAR's HP boost.

You think we want a WAR that uses sword+shield - me personally, I want a sword and shield to offer better defenses than an unwieldy great-axe as was promised and expected. It seems more like WAR's want an axe wielding barbarian to have defense comparable to someone using a shield.

It's really unfair to have WAR superior in tanking when it's a viable DD. Again, it should be able to tank and I think its great there's two tank classes (even though the healer role is not shared across classes I'm willing to share this...) My point is just that WAR should never be better at PLD in the one role PLD has to offer. I have a WAR friend that prefers not to tank, and I think it's a viable role for WAR's to be the backup tank. If the PLD goes down they are likely 2 or 3 on the hate list and can get up to #1 using a couple of abilities - their HP and solid defense means they won't get ripped apart like the other DD's.

[Alerith]

There should be no form of tanking that WAR is better at, its just in the trash mob situation, WAR's DD capabilities become more useful because taking less damage is less useful.

While that would be nice, it just isn't feasible with the way abilities are currently setup. Sure, Flash and War Drum are AoE, but they don't deal damage. WAR is ideal for the multi-tank situation because as long as the enemies don't hit like a truck, WAR can eventually AoE the whole group down, whereas a PLD in the same situation has extremely limited damage options, damage options that are geared towards keeping the attention of a single target.

I liken it to this example:

A Paladin and a Warrior are in the same party against as Wyrm NM. The Wyrm is extremely hard hitting, and the Paladin takes the tanking lead.

Shortly after the battle begins, the Wyrm spawns five skeletons to assist it in battle. These don't hit nearly as hard as the NM. The Warrior breaks off from the Wyrm and gathers all the skeletons on himself.

The Paladin, being as self-sufficient as we would like it to be, manages his HP and MP with the assistance of a BRD while the White Mage supports the Warrior.

The Warrior does a consistent 900 damage to each skeleton upon each AoE WS.
The Paladin does a consistent 1300 damage to the Wyrm upon each WS.

The skeletons all die at the same time and the WAR and WHM can rejoin the PLD in fighting the Wyrm.

End Example.

In the perfect system, this is how it would work. If you switched the PLD's and the WAR's roles in that fight, you would lose ground because a PLD isn't as good as dealing with crowds and a WAR's power is lost on a single target.

Could the PLD hold all the skeletons? Sure.
Could the WAR still tank the Wyrm? Absolutely.

But if they were balanced properly, they would BOTH have that specific role to fill when it comes to tanking and contributing damage.

[Phobos]

While that would be nice, it just isn't feasible with the way abilities are currently setup. Sure, Flash and War Drum are AoE, but they don't deal damage. WAR is ideal for the multi-tank situation because as long as the enemies don't hit like a truck, WAR can eventually AoE the whole group down, whereas a PLD in the same situation has extremely limited damage options, damage options that are geared towards keeping the attention of a single target.

I liken it to this example:

A Paladin and a Warrior are in the same party against as Wyrm NM. The Wyrm is extremely hard hitting, and the Paladin takes the tanking lead.

Shortly after the battle begins, the Wyrm spawns five skeletons to assist it in battle. These don't hit nearly as hard as the NM. The Warrior breaks off from the Wyrm and gathers all the skeletons on himself.

The Paladin, being as self-sufficient as we would like it to be, manages his HP and MP with the assistance of a BRD while the White Mage supports the Warrior.

The Warrior does a consistent 900 damage to each skeleton upon each AoE WS.
The Paladin does a consistent 1300 damage to the Wyrm upon each WS.

The skeletons all die at the same time and the WAR and WHM can rejoin the PLD in fighting the Wyrm.

End Example.

In the perfect system, this is how it would work. If you switched the PLD's and the WAR's roles in that fight, you would lose ground because a PLD isn't as good as dealing with crowds and a WAR's power is lost on a single target.

Could the PLD hold all the skeletons? Sure.
Could the WAR still tank the Wyrm? Absolutely.

But if they were balanced properly, they would BOTH have that specific role to fill when it comes to tanking and contributing damage.

This is what I was talking about with the whole, you use WAR on trash mobs thing. I'm just saying, it should work so that if the PLD wanted to hold hate on all the skeletons over the WAR, it should be capable of doing so (or at least being close to holding the same hate).

I think you hit the nail on the head, though. I'm just saying it should be more that PLD has given that role to WAR because it's AOE DPS is better, not because it's hate control/damage mitigation is better. Currently, the reasoning for WAR is both that it does better AOE DPS and has comparable hate control/damage mitigation.