Paladin Updates

[Alerith]

Hate to double post but you say it all here. Agree almost 100%. I used PLD some last night and can say now that it's definitely better than GLA (which it was not before). With the SW change and DV change I feel like I'm helping the party much more than before. I did some Ifrit runs and only lost hate once to my WAR friend because I had apparently been lazy on voke/flash.

Before DV was like a funny joke ability that you press when you're safe to not die from ability lock (you know, like outmaneuver), now you spam it whenever it's up (along with outmaneuver!)

Hearing over vent "what's this divine regen thing?" was kinda nice too.

On a side-note for the GLA vs PLD aspect (hasn't been mentioned in a while) I actually did notice it seems as though the class vs job intention is intact here. I was soloing the Zan'rak coffer mob and had a very rough time on PLD, whereas GLA seems much safer.

All-in-all I say good progress, and I'm with you on the fact that PLD can now tank. And I think most of us are getting it right here that they need to give us a reason for this lower HP otherwise WAR will remain the preferred tank (even though now PLD can) as it's a bit safer from the big magic attacks.

All PLD needs at this point is more HP and/or for Defense to be worth a damn, and some Magic Defense. Goring Blade and Spirit's Within serve as REASONABLE damage for a tank class, in my opinion.

But... why should we have only ONE tank ? So that we only use this one ? If WAR can't tank, while not being as good as DPS as DRG or MNK at close range, then it's WAR that won't be used.

While PLD is my favorite job, I also have a 50 WAR and I also love it. The way I see it, a lot of people seem to want PLD to blow WAR out of the water... then what's going to happen next ? People will complain that WAR is "useless".

I suppose giving PLD magic damage mitigation would indeed be nice... But even if that happens, people are still going to say "WAR has more HP and deals more damage". Then what's next ? Make PLD a DD/tank hybrid like WAR ?

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I, personally, would not be happy with PLD getting more DD potential. Because with more DD potential comes sacrifice in other areas to keep it balanced.

I play PLD for a strong defensive class, and I think it should perform as such.

Phobos is right that PLD should far outshine WAR in it's tanking, because they are two different types of tanks. (In theory. So far SE hasn't gotten the barance right.)

PLD should far excel against a single, hard hitting enemy. PLD should be far superior to WAR for this situation.
WAR should far excel against multiple, not-so-hard hitting enemies. WAR should be far superior to PLD for this situation.

Nobody is asking for ONE tank. We simply want these two classes to specialize in different forms of tanking, where one is always better than the other for certain situations.

[Phobos]

PLD should far excel against a single, hard hitting enemy. PLD should be far superior to WAR for this situation.
WAR should far excel against multiple, not-so-hard hitting enemies. WAR should be far superior to PLD for this situation.

This, I think, is a key point most people who suggest this fail to address. Most people give this BS argument that PLD should be single target tank and WAR multi-target tank. I think what you suggest actually works somewhat well, but I still say, PLD should be better at both maintaining enmity and taking less damage in ANY situation. In this situation, WAR would just be better because the damage taken would be small enough that it wouldn't matter. I think the key comes in that it's not needed for trash mobs, so the extra DD WAR provides becomes more of an asset than what PLD brings to the table.

Again, I think PLD should be better than WAR at tanking, but WAR should be capable of tanking. There should be no form of tanking that WAR is better at, its just in the trash mob situation, WAR's DD capabilities become more useful because taking less damage is less useful.

EDIT: Just to clarify here, this is where I feel the DoW's stand, and should stand.
BRD is a solid ranged DD that offers some party support options. It can calm down on DD and heal others if need be.
DRG is the glass cannon, and can shed enmity with some of its' abilities. Good DD that keeps itself alive through enmity control rather than defense.
MNK is the elemental and additional effect specialist. Good DD and can do some interesting stuff.
WAR is the defensive DD. Good DD and capable of taking some hits. If the PLD goes down the party isn't going to fail because this guy is here to save the day. Able to deal more damage but also concentrate on defensive skills when needed.
PLD is the tank. Good enmity generation and defensive measures, poor damage.

This is how things should be. Right now the problem is the balance between WAR and PLD.

EDIT 2:

Sometimes I feel as if what people really want is that PLD is a WAR that wields a sword and shield instead, and dresses in white instead of red.

It's people's current attitude that will guarantee that WAR gets the nerf bat, because right now a lot of people are sending SE this message : "You can't make PLD strong enough." So what will they answer ? "In that case, we'll lower WAR."

And it would be SO easy for them to nerf WAR, too. Remove the increased crit chance from Steel Cyclone when used in a combo and increase its recast time to 60 seconds. One simple move that would lower WAR's effectiveness as a tank by a LOT. No more HP regen, and a lot less enmity generated would make it so that, even if WAR would still have more HP to help avoid being one-shotted, it won't matter much if it has problem keeping hate... and so DDs would have to slow down for the WAR to keep hate, speed-runs would be harder... guess what happens next ?

I'd rather have TWO tanks that have different playstyles and simply require a different approach then having one that is "efficient" but supposedly always "outshined" by the other. But that's just me I suppose.

I don't think you get the point here. You say we want PLD to be WAR with a sword and shield, and that our complaining will just nerf WAR. The point is WAR should not be the primary tank. WAR is fine where it is for now, maybe in later stages it could get a nerf. Balance jobs against each other by buffing them, then perhaps nerf them based on content difficulty (though I don't see a problem with WAR right now myself).

At any rate, nobody is saying you can't make PLD strong enough. This update was just abilities, the true problem is the lack of traits. PLD had this promise of increased defense with decreased HP, but all we got was decreased HP. Any boost defense gives in the game's current state pales in comparison to WAR's HP boost.

You think we want a WAR that uses sword+shield - me personally, I want a sword and shield to offer better defenses than an unwieldy great-axe as was promised and expected. It seems more like WAR's want an axe wielding barbarian to have defense comparable to someone using a shield.

It's really unfair to have WAR superior in tanking when it's a viable DD. Again, it should be able to tank and I think its great there's two tank classes (even though the healer role is not shared across classes I'm willing to share this...) My point is just that WAR should never be better at PLD in the one role PLD has to offer. I have a WAR friend that prefers not to tank, and I think it's a viable role for WAR's to be the backup tank. If the PLD goes down they are likely 2 or 3 on the hate list and can get up to #1 using a couple of abilities - their HP and solid defense means they won't get ripped apart like the other DD's.

[Alerith]

There should be no form of tanking that WAR is better at, its just in the trash mob situation, WAR's DD capabilities become more useful because taking less damage is less useful.

While that would be nice, it just isn't feasible with the way abilities are currently setup. Sure, Flash and War Drum are AoE, but they don't deal damage. WAR is ideal for the multi-tank situation because as long as the enemies don't hit like a truck, WAR can eventually AoE the whole group down, whereas a PLD in the same situation has extremely limited damage options, damage options that are geared towards keeping the attention of a single target.

I liken it to this example:

A Paladin and a Warrior are in the same party against as Wyrm NM. The Wyrm is extremely hard hitting, and the Paladin takes the tanking lead.

Shortly after the battle begins, the Wyrm spawns five skeletons to assist it in battle. These don't hit nearly as hard as the NM. The Warrior breaks off from the Wyrm and gathers all the skeletons on himself.

The Paladin, being as self-sufficient as we would like it to be, manages his HP and MP with the assistance of a BRD while the White Mage supports the Warrior.

The Warrior does a consistent 900 damage to each skeleton upon each AoE WS.
The Paladin does a consistent 1300 damage to the Wyrm upon each WS.

The skeletons all die at the same time and the WAR and WHM can rejoin the PLD in fighting the Wyrm.

End Example.

In the perfect system, this is how it would work. If you switched the PLD's and the WAR's roles in that fight, you would lose ground because a PLD isn't as good as dealing with crowds and a WAR's power is lost on a single target.

Could the PLD hold all the skeletons? Sure.
Could the WAR still tank the Wyrm? Absolutely.

But if they were balanced properly, they would BOTH have that specific role to fill when it comes to tanking and contributing damage.

[Phobos]

While that would be nice, it just isn't feasible with the way abilities are currently setup. Sure, Flash and War Drum are AoE, but they don't deal damage. WAR is ideal for the multi-tank situation because as long as the enemies don't hit like a truck, WAR can eventually AoE the whole group down, whereas a PLD in the same situation has extremely limited damage options, damage options that are geared towards keeping the attention of a single target.

I liken it to this example:

A Paladin and a Warrior are in the same party against as Wyrm NM. The Wyrm is extremely hard hitting, and the Paladin takes the tanking lead.

Shortly after the battle begins, the Wyrm spawns five skeletons to assist it in battle. These don't hit nearly as hard as the NM. The Warrior breaks off from the Wyrm and gathers all the skeletons on himself.

The Paladin, being as self-sufficient as we would like it to be, manages his HP and MP with the assistance of a BRD while the White Mage supports the Warrior.

The Warrior does a consistent 900 damage to each skeleton upon each AoE WS.
The Paladin does a consistent 1300 damage to the Wyrm upon each WS.

The skeletons all die at the same time and the WAR and WHM can rejoin the PLD in fighting the Wyrm.

End Example.

In the perfect system, this is how it would work. If you switched the PLD's and the WAR's roles in that fight, you would lose ground because a PLD isn't as good as dealing with crowds and a WAR's power is lost on a single target.

Could the PLD hold all the skeletons? Sure.
Could the WAR still tank the Wyrm? Absolutely.

But if they were balanced properly, they would BOTH have that specific role to fill when it comes to tanking and contributing damage.

This is what I was talking about with the whole, you use WAR on trash mobs thing. I'm just saying, it should work so that if the PLD wanted to hold hate on all the skeletons over the WAR, it should be capable of doing so (or at least being close to holding the same hate).

I think you hit the nail on the head, though. I'm just saying it should be more that PLD has given that role to WAR because it's AOE DPS is better, not because it's hate control/damage mitigation is better. Currently, the reasoning for WAR is both that it does better AOE DPS and has comparable hate control/damage mitigation.

[Arcell]

While that would be nice, it just isn't feasible with the way abilities are currently setup. Sure, Flash and War Drum are AoE, but they don't deal damage. WAR is ideal for the multi-tank situation because as long as the enemies don't hit like a truck, WAR can eventually AoE the whole group down, whereas a PLD in the same situation has extremely limited damage options, damage options that are geared towards keeping the attention of a single target.

I liken it to this example:

A Paladin and a Warrior are in the same party against as Wyrm NM. The Wyrm is extremely hard hitting, and the Paladin takes the tanking lead.

Shortly after the battle begins, the Wyrm spawns five skeletons to assist it in battle. These don't hit nearly as hard as the NM. The Warrior breaks off from the Wyrm and gathers all the skeletons on himself.

The Paladin, being as self-sufficient as we would like it to be, manages his HP and MP with the assistance of a BRD while the White Mage supports the Warrior.

The Warrior does a consistent 900 damage to each skeleton upon each AoE WS.
The Paladin does a consistent 1300 damage to the Wyrm upon each WS.

The skeletons all die at the same time and the WAR and WHM can rejoin the PLD in fighting the Wyrm.

End Example.

In the perfect system, this is how it would work. If you switched the PLD's and the WAR's roles in that fight, you would lose ground because a PLD isn't as good as dealing with crowds and a WAR's power is lost on a single target.

Could the PLD hold all the skeletons? Sure.
Could the WAR still tank the Wyrm? Absolutely.

But if they were balanced properly, they would BOTH have that specific role to fill when it comes to tanking and contributing damage.

And that's pretty much exactly how I thought it should be. WAR should be the off-tank/DD. In group fights they take the adds while the PLD takes the main boss. Like with Haughtpox and his goblin horde (if this fight wasn't obscenely easy currently). PLD should take Haughtpox and WAR should grab all the other goblins and move them away. WAR holds hate on them and AoEs them down (because WAR has higher damage potential) while the rest of the group wails on them as well. Once they're all down they can help PLD with the single boss left.

The notion of PLD = single target, WAR = multi-target comes from the classes. For a time Gladiator was used for single target tanking while Marauder was used for multi-target tanking. Gladiator had mostly single target skills and Marauder had a plethora of AoE skills, so they fit these roles. Over the course of a few patches though one became outright better than the other at tanking, switching back and forth a few times. Now we have a situation similar to that where WAR is just better. PLD can do it but just not as well.