Paladin Updates

[Treach]

Defender has been gone for awhile now...

[Brannigan]

Yeah defender has been gone for a loooong time. Aegis boon is fine as is - being able to call out an attack to negate is great. If they were going to change it at all I'd rather they just expand what it can block to magical attacks, breaths, etc.

WAR - Damage tank that requires mage attention.
PLD - Mitigation tank that doesn't need mage support, but deals minimal damage.

The problem with this is that paladin will never mitigate well enough to make up for the damage/HP difference from warrior. Like 10% flat mitigation could address the HP difference, but the damage difference is still huge. If they just make paladin take like tons less damage than everyone else then they need to make things hit hard enough to threaten paladin and everyone else just gets destroyed.

Ideally I'd like to see Warrior toughness at like 85-90% of Paladin, and Paladin damage on a single target at like 75% of Warrior.

Some changes that could help make that happen would be stuff like:

-Bringing GLA HP up to near MRD levels. Paladin loses some HP and Warrior gains some, so they're still higher but the difference isn't so severe.

-Reduce the Riot Blade cooldown to 45-60s and tie its combo condition to front, any, or side.

-Further buff Spirits Within (recast) or make the damage depend more on HP

-Slightly buff sword DPS across the board.

Another big problem with Paladin is that its subclasses are really lackluster. Provoke is good. Raise is okay but PLD can't really use it effectively in combat. That's pretty much where it ends. With White Mages existing, Sacred Prism->Cure and Stoneskin aren't really that amazing. Bloodbath is alright but paladin WSes don't hit hard (except for Spirits, which won't do as much damage if you're actually recovering HP with Bloodbath).

When you compare it to Warrior that gets Flash, Sentinel, Rampart, Featherfoot, Second Wind, and (as a DD) Blindside, PLD subskills look really bad. If we could parry then foresight would be pretty good. That would also open up Overpower in some situations since we have no AOE weaponskills that deal damage. If they wanted to go really crazy they could move Tempered Will's effects to Enduring March and make that non-exclusive, then add a new Gladiator exclusive ability in its place.

Anyway I'm sure stuff like this has been posted before so it doesn't really matter. They'll probably end up fixing paladin somehow but I just hope they figure out a way to do it without invalidating warrior as well. I don't really enjoy warrior that much but I know some people do and it'd suck for them to be useless.

[darkvision]

I played XIV for about a month when it was first released but it sucked so bad i stopped and i just recently (since last week) started playing again and quit XI. now i have played XI for a long time and my main was PLD and loved the job and would love it to be my main and its going to be but anyhoo....

SE seem to be able to do a few things:-
1. make DD jobs stronger
2. make tank specific jobs suck alot (over time, and basically PLD)
3. make mages keep up with healling DD's

i actually read this whole topic work for word and dont want to start arguing with anyone about jobs/classes since i still got alot to learn about the game but for PLD i would like to see a few things done:-

* Natural magic damage mitigation
* * starting at -5% MDT, MND increases % reduction max -25%

* Decent accuracy
* * This should not hurt as they do alot less dmg but would be great not to wiff WS for combo's

* Improved Defence mitigation
* * A natural PDT of ~10-15% reduction

* Better shield mastery
* * Increase the block rate

* Natural reduction of spell interuptions
* * ~50-60% reduction at max level

atm it seems, from what i read, that to be the better tank is to have as much HP as possible, deal shit ton of dmg and have the support to keep you alive. which is what WAR is doing atm from what i read, taking same amount of dmg as PLD but doing alot more dmg at the same time.

now i have said that i have not been back long and missed out on alot through all the updates etc. also majority of the time i have been soloing (GLA/PLD lvl41 atm) so these kind of ideas is just something i think could be usefull for PLD.

this is just my 2 cents and again i dont want to start an argument with anyone about my idea's since i still got alot to learn about the game

[TamjiN]

Maybe something where outmaneuver is like aegis boon but restores MP instead of HP would be a nice edition.

[Aceofspades]

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Alot of people are assuming that WAR>PLD in a tank role. This is not incorrect in SOME situations, mostly crowd controll. In a situation where the AF gear dosent deflect enough of the damage and you must upgrade gear, Warrior loses any edge it may have had in a tank role. HP bonus is FAR less then with the AF gear. Also, Hate control is FAR better with PLD then WAR when tanking one mob / boss at a time. This is not an opinion, it is a FACT. I have had several challanges from many people including WARs in wich I never came close to losing hate. I will accept any and all challenges btw. I do have FRAPS now soo I will record a chalangers fight and post it. As far as surviveability, .... , I dont think this is realy up for debate however if people have to ask, yeah that one gose to the PLD as well (kinda a no brainer one would think) the ONLY thing WAR has over PLD is DPS. Question to be answered is: is having more heals to keep a WAR tank alive better then having less heals and replacing it with a PLD tank? I suppose it depends on the player at that point. If all the people you play with are doing realy bad dammage it may then be a option to have one of em go healer and bring in more dps via a WAR tank.

[jwang]

I don't get your point with the above picture posts in comparing the two jobs. What exactly are you trying to prove with it? And in WAR vs. PLD debate, it's mainly on playstyle. A good WAR tank is equally viable as a good PLD tank in terms of enmity, the only difference is WAR tanks have stupid amounts of HP and PLD tanks have shield block and higher defense. The problem with this is that current damage formulas favor high HP builds for a bigger margin of error for healers, and WAR's DPS makes it a more favorable choice over PLD. Arguing that WAR needs a second healer is invalid as well, since there has already been runs done with a single healer and a WAR tank, and even with PLD tanks most groups like to bring 2 healers for insurance. To make matters worse for PLD, a WAR can self heal as well, though not as frequently as PLD. Even though they have a smaller pool of self healing abilities, WAR can use these on the run and cannot be interrupted outside of stun, petrified, and pacification status effects. A PLD CAN be interrupted, cannot heal himself while moving, and has a limited number of heals tied to his MP pool. The best way to balance the two jobs in my opinion is to make shield blocks prevent interruption, increase the MP restored from Outmaneuver, and make Holy Succor an instant cast.

[Rydin]

I don't get your point with the above picture posts in comparing the two jobs. What exactly are you trying to prove with it? And in WAR vs. PLD debate, it's mainly on playstyle. A good WAR tank is equally viable as a good PLD tank in terms of enmity, the only difference is WAR tanks have stupid amounts of HP and PLD tanks have shield block and higher defense. The problem with this is that current damage formulas favor high HP builds for a bigger margin of error for healers, and WAR's DPS makes it a more favorable choice over PLD. Arguing that WAR needs a second healer is invalid as well, since there has already been runs done with a single healer and a WAR tank, and even with PLD tanks most groups like to bring 2 healers for insurance. To make matters worse for PLD, a WAR can self heal as well, though not as frequently as PLD. Even though they have a smaller pool of self healing abilities, WAR can use these on the run and cannot be interrupted outside of stun, petrified, and pacification status effects. A PLD CAN be interrupted, cannot heal himself while moving, and has a limited number of heals tied to his MP pool. The best way to balance the two jobs in my opinion is to make shield blocks prevent interruption, increase the MP restored from Outmaneuver, and make Holy Succor an instant cast.

I think he is showing that the HP difference while wearing the same non-af gear is not as big....
Its an odd issue and there are tons and tons of different ways to fix it...
The thing is.... I don't know if it's a cultural difference in terms of how we approach problems or whatever... but SE's fixes are always completely different than how I (we?) would expect them to fix it.
Improving cover (And revealing the hidden effect) and Divine Veil?

It's hard (See: impossible) to compare HP vs Defense, or HP vs physical damage mitigation... and even if you could, it's situational. HP doesn't always win.... If WAR had 100 more HP but PLD had insane damage mitigation then yes... damage mitigation would win. But right now WAR has quite a bit more HP than PLD (Definitely more than 100).

The one advantage HP has (As stated by several people in this thread) is that it is effective for both Physical and Magic attacks. Magic Def has kind of been spit on by the Devs....
Yes you can improve one element with jewelry and materia... but people are hesitant about using elemental veil materia, because HP materia is more versatile and less situational

Also.. I would like to see firm testing done on Blocks vs Parries (I may even do it myself)

At the end of the day... Can they both co-exist?
When MRD/WAR is the preferred tank... no one uses GLA/PLD... and when GLA/PLD is preferred, people tend to stay away from MRD/WAR..... will there ever be a time when they both have a place in this game?
Will you ever see both a PLD and a WAR in the same party on a regular basis?

[Kiara]

It's hard (See: impossible) to compare HP vs Defense, or HP vs physical damage mitigation... and even if you could, it's situational. HP doesn't always win.... If WAR had 100 more HP but PLD had insane damage mitigation then yes... damage mitigation would win. But right now WAR has quite a bit more HP than PLD (Definitely more than 100).

The one advantage HP has (As stated by several people in this thread) is that it is effective for both Physical and Magic attacks. Magic Def has kind of been spit on by the Devs....
Yes you can improve one element with jewelry and materia... but people are hesitant about using elemental veil materia, because HP materia is more versatile and less situational

Hi Rydin,

Well said.

And to make the divide even greater is the fact that Warrior is a far better Damage Dealer than Paladin, and has its core Enmity Combo be tied into its best Weaponskill as well (Steel Cyclone) (vs. Paladin's Spirits Within off of a successful block scenario only).

It's a good question: What *would* a standout Defensive change be to make Paladin desirable again?

In light of Warrior with the highest HP totals in the game, very good Enmity generation / ability to hold Hate, good DPS and good AOE, and some good Defensive abilities, what could SE do to make Paladin - a Job that by its very nature is "Defense Only / Tank" - a *good, desirable* choice?

Is it an inherent Defense boost (via Trait or just inherent when switching to the Job) of, say, +25% Boost to Defense (over its current rating)? Does it also include Magic Defense boost of some kind? (which would certainly make it standout)

Fixing Blocking & Shields and its calculations would help as well (especially vs. higher level "End Game" enemies).

Paladin is certainly better after this hot patch than it was during 1.21, but it's not enough.

[Rydin]

Hi Rydin,

Well said.

And to make the divide even greater is the fact that Warrior is a far better Damage Dealer than Paladin, and has its core Enmity Combo be tied into its best Weaponskill as well (Steel Cyclone) (vs. Paladin's Spirits Within off of a successful block scenario only).

It's a good question: What *would* a standout Defensive change be to make Paladin desirable again?

In light of Warrior with the highest HP totals in the game, very good Enmity generation / ability to hold Hate, good DPS and good AOE, and some good Defensive abilities, what could SE do to make Paladin - a Job that by its very nature is "Defense Only / Tank" - a *good, desirable* choice?

Is it an inherent Defense boost (via Trait or just inherent when switching to the Job) of, say, +25% Boost to Defense (over its current rating)? Does it also include Magic Defense boost of some kind? (which would certainly make it standout)

Fixing Blocking & Shields and its calculations would help as well (especially vs. higher level "End Game" enemies).

Paladin is certainly better after this hot patch than it was during 1.21, but it's not enough.

And furthermore... if PLD gets a boost and becomes the new go-to tank again... will WAR just fade to the side?

[SwordCoheir]

Hi Rydin,
*Stuff*

Lets not forget Vengance gives WAR a 50% damage reduction damage return for 15 seconds, and Rampage gives them retarded amounts of self healing capability that work with AoEs.