Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

[Gserpent]

Pretty sure he doesn't even raid outside of normal modes. He's said several incorrect things so far and judging by his post history he just goes into random threads to troll people.

You can literally look up my lodestone. I don't make any effort to hide it. I haven't bothered raiding this expansion, but I've kept up with the strats and clears of my friends so I am familiar with them.

PLD gets a burst of healing once every 60 sec. It's 8 actions (4 Holy Spirit, 1 Confiteor, 3 Blade combo spells) at 400 potency each, for 3200 potency in total. PLD can't casually dump gauge on Sheltron like other tanks can freely use their defensive buttons on cooldown, because PLD currently has to stock 100 gauge to Sheltron+Intervention for every tankbuster. But you can probably figure at least one Sheltron per minute as an average over the course of the fight? So that's another 1000 potency, for ~4200 potency per minute (actually over 1 minute due to GCD timings but whatever!) Almost all of that healing comes in one chain of healing, rather than spread throughout the minute.

Compared to WAR, WAR executes a Storm's Path combo at least four times per minute - figure 2.4 GCD gets you 25 GCDs per minute, 4 of which are used on your IR combo, 6 of which probably get used maintaining Storm's Eye buff, and then you'll have occasional Fell Cleave or IC uses here and there to avoid capping gauge/Infuriate charges. It will fluctuate, but 4 Storm's Paths per minute is fairly consistent. That's 1000 potency of healing, at a speed of roughly 2-3x longer than a standard regen. Assuming you can use it on cooldown or nearly so according to fight script, you can use Bloodwhetting twice in that minute, each time netting 1200 potency from healing and an additional 400 potency from shields. We are, right now, at 4200 total healing/shielding potency for the minute. But wait, there's more! Equilibrium is also a 60 second cooldown, worth 1200p instant healing and another 1000p over 15 sec as a regen. You can add in a Thrill of Battle (effectively a 20% maxHP heal, plus a healing received amp that applies to the WAR's own effects) every other minute, if you wanted to. PLD has healed for a potential 5200 potency in one minute (assuming two Sheltron uses, not guaranteed), while WAR popped off for 7400 potency in that same timeframe (also assuming two Bloodwhetting uses, not guaranteed.)

It's somewhat similar for the other tanks. GNB pops a 200+200 heal+shield on their combo second step, gets 1200p regen from Aurora (two charges, each 60 sec timer), and gets a 900p excog effect from Heart of Corundum, up to twice per minute. DRK has the lowest healing of the tanks, largely relegated to their combo heal (which is 340p) at least as far as raids go (Abyssal Drain is negligible in raids), but has the highest uptime for general mitigation due to Oblation charges, and TBN is TBN. I don't really feel like doing the math on how many combo pops those classes get per minute, but I do know that the numbers were crunched a long time ago and PLD was on the bottom.

It's weird... it's almost like PLD is just missing a whole-ass tool or benefit that the other tanks have. I mean, technically wings gives you 100% block for its duration? If you wanted to do literally 0 DPS for 18 sec, I guess. And you don't have to move at all for 18 sec. There's more to it than just raw healing potency, WAR mitigates a bit less than PLD in exchange for healing more. But even accounting for that, PLD is still behind everyone else - and that's not even factoring in block not functioning on the bleeds they added to tankbusters and raidwides with Abyssos, which puts them even farther behind (hence the gimmicky Sheltron+Intervention plays to account for this, which is why you have to have 100 gauge ready for the tankbusters.)

Guess what? Giving them Clemency on a roughly 25-30 sec cooldown (so, around as long as it takes to build 50 gauge, give or take a bit) would completely fix this. It would add 1000-2000p of healing per minute, subject to gauge management and uptime. Alternatively, they could just add something like 200p of healing or shielding to Royal Authority (or, again, it could go onto Atonement instead, resulting in no sustain from the regular combo but a burst of sustain when it's time to dump Atonement charges.) But I favor a solution that turns a currently useless button into a functional button.

As I've said this whole time, taking Sheltron off the gauge and making it a flat cooldown (probably 25s since that's the same as everyone else), making Clemency oGCD and putting it on the gauge completely fixes PLD's issues with durability compared to the other tanks - assuming, of course, that Sheltron will also affect bleeds. It turns a currently near-useless and iconic ability into one that will be effective and see regular use, and does so without meaningfully harming the class's ability to solo content.

I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, rather than actually considering the impacts of what's being suggested. It's very tiresome.

[Espon]

You can literally look up my lodestone. I don't make any effort to hide it. I haven't bothered raiding this expansion, but I've kept up with the strats and clears of my friends so I am familiar with them.

-pointless babbling-

I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, rather than actually considering the impacts of what's being suggested. It's very tiresome.

It's amazing how good you are at picking random words from what I said in this thread and ignoring everything else. You seem to be under the assumption that I'm perfectly content with paladin right now and yet the very first thing I posted before you came in here and started crapping your diaper everywhere was several issues I have with the job and fixes I think could work that doesn't require the job to be completely reworked. I want to avoid an incident like with what happened with Samurai or Summoner where old players no longer enjoy the job they used to play because of how different it is now.

Maybe you should take more than a few seconds to read what people are actually saying instead of throwing a temper tantrum and telling everyone that disagrees with you to quit the game. It didn't help you win you any arguments when you were a child, and it won't win you any arguments here.

[Rithy255]

It's amazing how good you are at picking random words from what I said in this thread and ignoring everything else. You seem to be under the assumption that I'm perfectly content with paladin right now and yet the very first thing I posted before you came in here and started crapping your diaper everywhere was several issues I have with the job and fixes I think could work that doesn't require the job to be completely reworked. I want to avoid an incident like with what happened with Samurai or Summoner where old players no longer enjoy the job they used to play because of how different it is now.

Maybe you should take more than a few seconds to read what people are actually saying instead of throwing a temper tantrum and telling everyone that disagrees with you to quit the game. It didn't help you win you any arguments when you were a child, and it won't win you any arguments here.

I don't even know what he's talking about tbh, every tank can "freely" use their defensives and PLD can't??? if anything as PLD you can be slightly more flexible then any other tank because you'll normally have shelltron for every tank buster (at least, if you saved up you can also use 100 oath on intervention if your co-tank really needs it). But in the same situation any other tank has to wait 25 seconds (15 in drks cases) if they wanna use their cds on autos...

PLD's gauge I don't think should or needs to become "clemency gauge", I'd like them to expand on how oath gauge works a bit but tying one sustain ability and giving PLD a 25 second mitigation (like every other tank) just really doesn't seem like a good idea to me, I'd much rather Oath gauge become a more interactive, defensive only (still) gauge

I got called mad earlier because I didn't like the direction that pld was going, I think this really sums up how I feel about the mentality of "don't like it just quit"

I'm also not mad that the Paladin is getting reworked it's how it's being reworked, people can again disagree and show disappointment in the direction of the game and still like the game, I have said before that I think PLD needs better defensives and adjustments to its rotation without ruining current pld, I mainly disagree with a total rework and making it like every other tank.

What you suggested (again) Solves the "clemency issue" (I don't think theirs actually a issue with clemency, more that Plds burst sustain isn't controlled). But having the option to OGCD heal and have a consistent source of healing (if you need it) is good.

[Mithron]

I just find it baffling that Gserpent is literally posting what every normal and sane person thinks about Clemancy yet we got a tiny minority of incorrect opinions ganging up on him. May the devs know and see that they are indeed incorrect and Clemancy should be an OGCD.

[Rithy255]

I just find it baffling that Gserpent is literally posting what every normal and sane person thinks about Clemancy yet we got a tiny minority of incorrect opinions ganging up on him. May the devs know and see that they are indeed incorrect and Clemancy should be an OGCD.

No ones ganging up on him he's telling people that they're mad and shouldn't play the game if they disagree with him, actually a lot of people (here) seem to agree that it's fine to have more niche abilities

Again people want discussion without being reduced to name calling and telling people they're not allowed to disagree with current game design, at least read what's been said, If someone is going to be disrespectful then gets called out for it it's on them.

[Jirah]

I’d like to challenge the TC and say when was the last bloody beneficial rework the games had since HW? BRD maybe during 4.0 everything else has been (I say this for the 10th time now) a exercise in reduction and accessibility not a improvement

[Gserpent]

I don't even know what he's talking about tbh, every tank can "freely" use their defensives and PLD can't??? if anything as PLD you can be slightly more flexible then any other tank because you'll normally have shelltron for every tank buster (at least, if you saved up you can also use 100 oath on intervention if your co-tank really needs it). But in the same situation any other tank has to wait 25 seconds (15 in drks cases) if they wanna use their cds on autos...

PLD's gauge I don't think should or needs to become "clemency gauge", I'd like them to expand on how oath gauge works a bit but tying one sustain ability and giving PLD a 25 second mitigation (like every other tank) just really doesn't seem like a good idea to me, I'd much rather Oath gauge become a more interactive, defensive only (still) gauge

I got called mad earlier because I didn't like the direction that pld was going, I think this really sums up how I feel about the mentality of "don't like it just quit"


What you suggested (again) Solves the "clemency issue" (I don't think theirs actually a issue with clemency, more that Plds burst sustain isn't controlled). But having the option to OGCD heal and have a consistent source of healing (if you need it) is good.

I explained why PLD doesn't have free use of Sheltron. I'm sorry if it wasn't explicit enough? Currently, in order to handle tankbusters due to a large portion of Sheltron's mitigation (guaranteed blocking) not working on the bleeds that comprise a large portion of tankbuster damage, PLD groups have to engage in a gimmick where their co-tank uses their defensive skill on the PLD (Nascent Flash, Heart of Corundum, Oblation, etc) and then the PLD hands them Intervention to cover for their lack of that skill on themselves, on top of the PLD also using Sheltron on themselves for the flat 15% mitigation. This requires 100 gauge, obviously. It should also be noted that it takes longer than 25 sec to accrue 50 gauge (swing timer for abyssos sword is 2.24 seconds, before modifications), and this is further extended if the PLD has to stop autoswinging. Others have suggested ways of addressing this different, separate problem.

I told you "if you don't like it just quit" because that's literally your only option here. If you don't like the direction PLD is going, and PLD being homogenized to be "WAR but they have a shield!" is going to be a deal-breaker for you, then you should probably plan your exit because that is exactly what we're going to be getting. WAR is wildly popular, fits Square-Enix's seemingly "we want classes to be as mindless as possible so players can't make meaningful mistakes" design ethos, and PLD is currently suffering from multiple issues affecting both its durability and its DPS.

Moreover, your fixation on solo performance or other things like that is really weird, when PLD isn't even top dog at that anymore. WAR has long since eclipsed PLD at being able to solo things, so why would anyone pick PLD for that job anyway?

[ForsakenRoe]

I do find it a bit odd reading the words 'I dont want Oath gauge to become 'Clemency Gauge' because it's Sheltron Gauge as it stands... Honestly the more I think about it, the more I realize that OGCD Clemency would not just be 'good', it'd be strong to the point where it needs to be nerfed in potency to not make PLD be 'the absolute best at selfsustain ever move over WAR'. Every 22 seconds, PLD gets 1000p of burst heal, that's strong. For contrast, GNB's Aurora is 1200 per 45s

[Mithron]

I do find it a bit odd reading the words 'I dont want Oath gauge to become 'Clemency Gauge' because it's Sheltron Gauge as it stands... Honestly the more I think about it, the more I realize that OGCD Clemency would not just be 'good', it'd be strong to the point where it needs to be nerfed in potency to not make PLD be 'the absolute best at selfsustain ever move over WAR'. Every 22 seconds, PLD gets 1000p of burst heal, that's strong. For contrast, GNB's Aurora is 1200 per 45s

I know you're a healer main but would it be so bad for PLD to have awesome utility and healing with the trade-off being lowest DPS of the tanks? :P

[Sqwall]

I do find it a bit odd reading the words 'I dont want Oath gauge to become 'Clemency Gauge' because it's Sheltron Gauge as it stands... Honestly the more I think about it, the more I realize that OGCD Clemency would not just be 'good', it'd be strong to the point where it needs to be nerfed in potency to not make PLD be 'the absolute best at selfsustain ever move over WAR'. Every 22 seconds, PLD gets 1000p of burst heal, that's strong. For contrast, GNB's Aurora is 1200 per 45s

Clemency and Sheltron are the same healing potency. In what way would anyone use clemency over sheltron at this point.

Holy Sheltron >>>>>> Clemency. Just for the shear fact that it gives mitigation (equal to sentinel btw if but brief)...oGCD...and it's a strong heal to boot.

PLD's only every use clemency if the literal shit hit's the fan...Hallowed is down...a healer is dead....I'm out of oath...and a tank buster is incoming. Throw the raid? Or sacrifice a little DPS for something that might get us through?

PLD's a pretty big brain when you think about it....so much utility that goes pretty much unnoticed. I'm not the greatest PLD (WAR main), but I have taken PLD in savage for troll runs...and it's VERY strong in the defensive and utility category. The fact that I don't have to double weave or sometimes triple weave mitigation on PLD is a telling sign how strong it is.

It's strict rotation is another story....one miss step...2 GCD's off....and your toast rotation and DPS wise. You'll be out of raid buff windows so bad it becomes a lost cause, and then you just do your best. PLD's have to have tunneling issues....I know I do when I play PLD just due to how focused I am to not drift.