Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

[Sqwall]

I do find it a bit odd reading the words 'I dont want Oath gauge to become 'Clemency Gauge' because it's Sheltron Gauge as it stands... Honestly the more I think about it, the more I realize that OGCD Clemency would not just be 'good', it'd be strong to the point where it needs to be nerfed in potency to not make PLD be 'the absolute best at selfsustain ever move over WAR'. Every 22 seconds, PLD gets 1000p of burst heal, that's strong. For contrast, GNB's Aurora is 1200 per 45s

They should just make it oGCD, but with a 60 sec cooldown. Much like equilibrium. Main differences with equal is that it can be buffed with thrill giving heals as strong as 40-50k if it crits. PLUS it gives a HoT that is decent.

Clemency will more then likely...be removed imo as it's just not really necessary when you compare it to the crazy heals PLD get's just by completing it's burst rotation.

Clemency is pretty much relegated to a novelty skill at this point. Like Six Sided Star, or Orogeny. Although, I should say I don't have AOE or silly skills on my hotbar in a savage setting.

Clemency is just different to not have it on my hot bar as it DOES have it's uses albeit...I never use it unless everything is going very wrong. Now Cover? THAT could get the boot or trait up treatment...cover is useless practically.

[Gserpent]

I know you're a healer main but would it be so bad for PLD to have awesome utility and healing with the trade-off being lowest DPS of the tanks? :P

Honestly, I wish this sort of thing was even an option. We have four tanks, why can't we run the gamut from safest/lowest DPS to riskiest/highest DPS? GNB and DRK in the middle, WAR on top of the risky (berserker), PLD on the bottom of safe (plateboy.) It would require us to ignore the wailing of parsing nerds and the occasional odd "but meta!" type, but... is that even a bad thing? As long as it's not a *huge* difference in DPS, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. Even ultimates don't require you to be pumping 90th percentile theoretical DPS to clear, and maybe trading some DPS for a class that brings an extra button or two to cover for mistakes would be worth it.

Problem is, failed mechanics still result in a damage down, so I don't know how applicable this would even be. Too bad we can't just go back to vuln snacks...

[Rithy255]

(Quote was shortened look at og post for better context)

I explained why PLD doesn't have free use of Sheltron. I'm sorry if it wasn't explicit enough? Currently, in order to handle tankbusters due to a large portion of Sheltron's mitigation (guaranteed blocking) not working on the bleeds that comprise a large portion of tankbuster damage, PLD groups have to engage in a gimmick where their co-tank uses their defensive skill on the PLD (Nascent Flash, Heart of Corundum, Oblation, etc) and then the PLD hands them Intervention to cover for their lack of that skill on themselves, on top of the PLD also using Sheltron on themselves for the flat 15% mitigation. This requires 100 gauge, obviously. It should also be noted that it takes longer than 25 sec to accrue 50 gauge (swing timer for abyssos sword is 2.24 seconds, before modifications), and this is further extended if the PLD has to stop autoswinging. Others have suggested ways of addressing this different, separate problem.

No I went over it, you shouldn't even be constantly saving up 100 oath for shelltron/interventions in case of a double tank buster, is the issue I don't actually think you understand how Paladin works if you generally think that's the case, in reality PLD's always going to have access at least for themselves, again No tank really "needs" you to intervention them generally speaking but it's a nice bonus to have if you know a double tank buster is coming, PLD because of two stacks is generally more free then other tanks.

Correction, No It doesn't take longer then 25 seconds, actually through timing it and averages it worked out to filling every 21 seconds to 50, again Incorrect. This is something I even went out and tested/timed in game, again telling people to quit the game is disrespectful calling people "mad", you generally can't understand not taking issue with things but still liking the game "just quit" isn't a good argument beyond that you were calling me mad for no reason really.

It's not my fixation, I take Issue with changing clemency itself, I think people who enjoy solo content and Paladin, also theirs also other cases outside solo content where clemency is again useful. Changing it in a way that doesn't ruin PLD's solo ability or just general ability to have a on demand heal, sure it would "make PLD better" if you gave them a ogcd clemency instead of current clemency but again PLD would also still be good if you kept clemency as it is and either like what was mentioned give clemecy it a way of ogcd healing (Espons clemency suggestion) or give pld a ogcd heal action.

[Gserpent]

(Quote was shortened look at og post for better context)

No I went over it, you shouldn't even be constantly saving up 100 oath for shelltron/interventions in case of a double tank buster, is the issue I don't actually think you understand how Paladin works if you generally think that's the case, in reality PLD's always going to have access at least for themselves, again No tank really "needs" you to intervention them generally speaking but it's a nice bonus to have if you know a double tank buster is coming, PLD because of two stacks is generally more free then other tanks.

Unless you already have the gear, to survive the double tankbusters, PLD must give their buddy Intervention, receive their buddy's skill (Heart of Corundum, Nascent Flash, etc), and use Sheltron. In addition to Rampart or Sentinel (possibly both, if we're talking about crafted ilvls.) This means their buddy doesn't have their own defensive skill (it has to be given to the PLD), which is why you have to use Intervention. The reason for all of this is because you can't block dots, and Abyssos brought in a heavy dot with each tankbuster.

Technically, you could just yell healers adjust and the healers could probably handle it, but this would probably involve some GCD healing, and that's a raid DPS loss. Meanwhile, you can do the above and no DPS is lost. I think PLD is okay once they already have that raid gear, but if you're progging, you either force your healers to sacrifice DPS or you have to stock 100 gauge for the dual tankbusters.

FWIW, PLD is also quite weak in DSR. The friends I watched were running GNB/WAR, so I don't have any... secondhand? experience here, but from what I've heard, PLD struggles a lot in certain phases while the other tanks are completely fine. This, on top of having very low DPS.

[ForsakenRoe]

I know you're a healer main but would it be so bad for PLD to have awesome utility and healing with the trade-off being lowest DPS of the tanks? :P

Sorry, my point wasn't 'this is too op so we cant have it' it was more meant to be 'this would be THIS OP, i don't get why people are saying OGCD Clem would be a nerf to PLD selfsustain'. Personally I think it'd be great if PLD was the 'selfhealing tank' via pure devotion to their oath, it'd be lore-friendly, it'd be a good callback to how Knight in FF1 had limited white magic access (up to level 5 was it? so at least Cure2), and I've never really understood why WAR is the 'selfheal tank', but WAR mains would have me believe that 'does the most damage' is an identity so /shrug

Clemency and Sheltron are the same healing potency. In what way would anyone use clemency over sheltron at this point.

Holy Sheltron >>>>>> Clemency. Just for the shear fact that it gives mitigation (equal to sentinel btw if but brief)...oGCD...and it's a strong heal to boot.

If the PLD were below level 82, would be a good starting example. WAR has the selfhealing effect in Raw Intuition at level 54, and Equilibrium at 58. PLD has nothing until Holy Sheltron, as the selfhealing of the Req window is added by a trait in the late 80s.

If Clemency were made into an Oath spending OGCD and Sheltron were made into a standalone CD (lets say 20s since it takes about 22-23sec to get 50 oath atm), we'd have both at the same time, so there's no 'one VS the other' going on. Besides that, if you use Clemency on someone other than yourself, you get half of the healing too, boosting the total 'effective healing' of Clemency by 50% (good for after a double TB). So, as an example, in current tier there's a lot of bleeds on TBs and Block doesn't mitigate the bleed (only the initial hit). So rather than using Sheltron and Intervention, it'd potentially be better to use a buffed Intervention, get the 'helpy button' from your cotank in return eg Nascent/TBN/Heart of whatsit, and then Clemency the other tank after the damage hits. Further, if Sheltron was a free standalone OGCD, you could throw it in for free too.

Also a consideration to make: WAR's Bloodwhetting is 'free' every 25s, gives 400p shield, and 400p healing per GCD spent under it's effect (total 1600p EHP). Clemency costs a GCD and is 1000p EHP (1500 if used on ally). Sheltron gives 4 ticks of 250p, totalling 1000EHP, but costs 50 gauge. So moving Sheltron off of the gauge actually makes it more comparable to Bloodwhetting in single target. I think I'd rather they remove the selfhealing from the Req window, and made this gauge spending Clemency change, it'd mean the PLD can choose when to heal, instead of having to hope that the 2400p healing of the Req combo happens to line up with damage

Now Cover? THAT could get the boot or trait up treatment...cover is useless practically.

Just had a funny idea: what if we rework Cover, so that it's like Thunderclap or Icarus, where we can use it on an ally from, say, 30y away, and we rush to their location, then apply the tether with 12y range as it works now? PLD would have an ally-based gapcloser, allowing it to get around the field a lot faster than the other tanks, that could be cool and unique? Definitely not just stealing Intervene from 'other game' no no

Unless you already have the gear, to survive the double tankbusters, PLD must give their buddy Intervention, receive their buddy's skill (Heart of Corundum, Nascent Flash, etc), and use Sheltron. In addition to Rampart or Sentinel (possibly both, if we're talking about crafted ilvls.) This means their buddy doesn't have their own defensive skill (it has to be given to the PLD), which is why you have to use Intervention. The reason for all of this is because you can't block dots, and Abyssos brought in a heavy dot with each tankbuster.

God the difference between PLD and WAR in P7S week 1 was night and day, I could just Krasis Soteria the WAR and he'd be fine for the bleed, but the PLDs would dissolve like paper in the rain... Holy Sheltron gives 15% mit for the first 4 seconds, on top of it's block effect. Since Block doesn't affect DOTs, maybe the strength of Blocking needs to be reduced, and the strength of that 4sec mit increased, to rebalance PLD to be stronger against DOTs? This would make regular Sheltron weaker, so maybe moving the bonus 'timed it right' mit to regular Sheltron would be needed to compensate, with Holy Sheltron being the 'it now does regen!' upgrade

Screw it, make the 'timed it right' mit 25-30%, if PLD is going to be stuck with one less mit tool than the other tanks, make it's current tools strong to compensate, so it can take a TB with one CD where other tanks would need 2. Make it become the 'tanky tank' you'd expect it to be with a whole shield strapped to it's arm. I miss SB when blocks were 30% in BIS Alphascape gear, Sheltron was a Vengeance on a 22 sec CD it was great

[Rithy255]

Unless you already have the gear, to survive the double tankbusters, PLD must give their buddy Intervention, receive their buddy's skill (Heart of Corundum, Nascent Flash, etc), and use Sheltron. In addition to Rampart or Sentinel (possibly both, if we're talking about crafted ilvls.) This means their buddy doesn't have their own defensive skill (it has to be given to the PLD), which is why you have to use Intervention. The reason for all of this is because you can't block dots, and Abyssos brought in a heavy dot with each tankbuster.

Technically, you could just yell healers adjust and the healers could probably handle it, but this would probably involve some GCD healing, and that's a raid DPS loss. Meanwhile, you can do the above and no DPS is lost. I think PLD is okay once they already have that raid gear, but if you're progging, you either force your healers to sacrifice DPS or you have to stock 100 gauge for the dual tankbusters.

FWIW, PLD is also quite weak in DSR. The friends I watched were running GNB/WAR, so I don't have any... secondhand? experience here, but from what I've heard, PLD struggles a lot in certain phases while the other tanks are completely fine. This, on top of having very low DPS.

Ok so other tanks in the same situation who don't have the benefit of intervention seem to be perfectly fine taking tank double busters, what's exclusive about PLD that if they dont use intervention (when any other tank would at most use something like Oblation, a skill only Drk has), that the other tank wouldn't "survive" Also, if your Gunbreaker uses Heart of corumdum on you or your warrior uses flash, then you could likely sentinel and intervention them without having to store up gauge, acting as if the PLD "has" to save up to 100 in every instance of a fight makes no sense when you have so many options where you don't have to use intervention all the time.

If Paladin was the only Job that can use its short cd on themselves and their co-tank, otherwise the healers would have a "major dps loss" PLD would all of a sudden become a must pick, but no they balance the fights not around PLD's unique trait of being able to store up to 100 gauge, using it on both is likely "Optimal" but when you're at the stage of being optimal, you tend to know when a duel tank buster is coming... I really don't see what even point you're trying to make here.

PLD does struggle, the Issues aren't clemency or oath gauge, it stems from a ton of Issues, Pretty sure theirs stuns in the latest ultimate that holy shelltron just doesn't block for one, They're the only tank lacking any personal defensive or anything equal to a a "small 60 second, Such as Oblation, aurora, equilibrium", They have some Jank and personal things that could be buffed, Having two raid wides on paper is good but I find passage of arms very situational and DV can be more clunky opposed to shake it off.

[Gserpent]

Ok so other tanks in the same situation who don't have the benefit of intervention seem to be perfectly fine taking tank double busters, what's exclusive about PLD that if they dont use intervention (when any other tank would at most use something like Oblation, a skill only Drk has), that the other tank wouldn't "survive" Also, if your Gunbreaker uses Heart of corumdum on you or your warrior uses flash, then you could likely sentinel and intervention them without having to store up gauge, acting as if the PLD "has" to save up to 100 in every instance of a fight makes no sense when you have so many options where you don't have to use intervention all the time.

What? No, dude. The PLD team *had* to engage in that gimmick to avoid shuffling a ton of extra work onto the healers. Either you did as I described above or you forced one or potentially both healers to have to pump GCD heals into the PLD to keep them alive through the bleed.

The WAR uses Nascent Flash on the PLD so that the PLD gets the raw mitigation necessary to survive through the bleed without giving the healers apoplexy. This means the WAR cannot use Bloodwhetting on themselves to tank up. The PLD then gives the WAR Intervention for 20+15% mit to compensate. Doing *anything else* means the healers have to adjust, which means GCD healing, which cuts raid DPS. Given how overtuned P8S was on arrival, this loss of DPS was actually relevant at the time... especially since you were *already* behind the DPS curve due to how low PLD's DPS was before the patch adjustments at the time.

I don't know how I can be more clear about this. PLD either has to stock 100 gauge for the tankbusters, or the healers have to sack their DPS to compensate. At least with crafted ilvls. I think it's less strenuous once you're geared up and doing reclears.

If the PLD were below level 82, would be a good starting example. WAR has the selfhealing effect in Raw Intuition at level 54, and Equilibrium at 58. PLD has nothing until Holy Sheltron, as the selfhealing of the Req window is added by a trait in the late 80s.

If Clemency were made into an Oath spending OGCD and Sheltron were made into a standalone CD (lets say 20s since it takes about 22-23sec to get 50 oath atm), we'd have both at the same time, so there's no 'one VS the other' going on. Besides that, if you use Clemency on someone other than yourself, you get half of the healing too, boosting the total 'effective healing' of Clemency by 50% (good for after a double TB). So, as an example, in current tier there's a lot of bleeds on TBs and Block doesn't mitigate the bleed (only the initial hit). So rather than using Sheltron and Intervention, it'd potentially be better to use a buffed Intervention, get the 'helpy button' from your cotank in return eg Nascent/TBN/Heart of whatsit, and then Clemency the other tank after the damage hits. Further, if Sheltron was a free standalone OGCD, you could throw it in for free too.

Yeah, I'd definitely want to see something like this. Let's say that Cover is removed, because it's kind of a useless ability right now and I don't see any feasible way of making it useful in a raiding context without making it overpowered.

So now we have an open spot at lvl 45. Put Clemency there. Since Sheltron is now free to use, this is also when we get Oath Gauge. Make this Clemency a 500 potency cure effect. At 58, when we previously earned Clemency, we instead get a trait that upgrades it to its 1000 potency form. Adjust Divine Magic Mastery at 64 to add on the "heal yourself for half the effect when used on an ally" element to the spell.

Sounds like a much more flavorful *and* effective Paladin, doesn't it? Even if we changed literally nothing else, I'd still want Clemency (even its current DPS loss form) at 45, because Paladins having limited white magic ability is such a core concept for the class fantasy. I also think we should be getting baby versions of Holy Spirit and Holy Circle earlier, too, but that's another subject...

[Rithy255]

What? No, dude. The PLD team *had* to engage in that gimmick to avoid shuffling a ton of extra work onto the healers. Either you did as I described above or you forced one or potentially both healers to have to pump GCD heals into the PLD to keep them alive through the bleed.

The WAR uses Nascent Flash on the PLD so that the PLD gets the raw mitigation necessary to survive through the bleed without giving the healers apoplexy. This means the WAR cannot use Bloodwhetting on themselves to tank up. The PLD then gives the WAR Intervention for 20+15% mit to compensate. Doing *anything else* means the healers have to adjust, which means GCD healing, which cuts raid DPS. Given how overtuned P8S was on arrival, this loss of DPS was actually relevant at the time... especially since you were *already* behind the DPS curve due to how low PLD's DPS was before the patch adjustments at the time.

I don't know how I can be more clear about this. PLD either has to stock 100 gauge for the tankbusters, or the healers have to sack their DPS to compensate. At least with crafted ilvls. I think it's less strenuous once you're geared up and doing reclears.

I don't know how I can be more clear about this, any other tank cannot use two of their short cd mitigations at once, it's unique to Paladin So the idea that for every double tank buster that you have to use 100 gauge just so healers don't struggle makes no sense, as PLD would be meta if healers had to pump out heals if the PLD didn't spend Intervention and holyshelltron on both tanks, Most the time if your warrior is going to use flash on you, all you would need is a Intervention on them and a sentinel (as using sent/rampart will further buff intervention and your Defence + warriors flash on you), using holyshelltron at that point isn't really Needed, you already got your intervention both you and the warrior are getting healed by flash, your intervention is regen on him and bassically 30% mitigation + whatever personal warrior might use, Using Holy shelltron on that situation isn't really needed, might be nice?

Paladins the only tank job that could use Holy shelltron on some autos and uh oh a tank buster coming up! oh well you can intervention the other tank or Use Shelltron on self and the tank can use their short cd on you and/or self then you both can use another personal and you'll likely not burden your healers.

PLD's issues aren't that you can store 2 of your CD's at once, which by my testing eariler charge back a little bit faster then war/gnb, that's like the only benefit to playing PLD actually, It's Issues are everything else such as Cover, LONG invul, No controlled sustain, Missing CD's other tanks have in place of other stuff, "blocks" from holyshelltron not working properly.

[ForsakenRoe]

I don't know how I can be more clear about this, any other tank cannot use two of their short cd mitigations at once, it's unique to Paladin So the idea that for every double tank buster that you have to use 100 gauge just so healers don't struggle makes no sense, as PLD would be meta if healers had to pump out heals if the PLD didn't spend Intervention and holyshelltron on both tanks, Most the time if your warrior is going to use flash on you, all you would need is a Intervention on them and a sentinel (as using sent/rampart will further buff intervention and your Defence + warriors flash on you), using holyshelltron at that point isn't really Needed, you already got your intervention both you and the warrior are getting healed by flash, your intervention is regen on him and bassically 30% mitigation + whatever personal warrior might use, Using Holy shelltron on that situation isn't really needed, might be nice?

Paladins the only tank job that could use Holy shelltron on some autos and uh oh a tank buster coming up! oh well you can intervention the other tank or Use Shelltron on self and the tank can use their short cd on you and/or self then you both can use another personal and you'll likely not burden your healers.

PLD's issues aren't that you can store 2 of your CD's at once, which by my testing eariler charge back a little bit faster then war/gnb, that's like the only benefit to playing PLD actually, It's Issues are everything else such as Cover, LONG invul, No controlled sustain, Missing CD's other tanks have in place of other stuff, "blocks" from holyshelltron not working properly.

The point is, lets say you do the Intervention swap with, IDK a WAR. You want to kitchen sink the TB. So you use Sentinel, Rampart and Intervention them. They Nascent Flash you in return. Based on just this interaction, they're now at 40% (or 10%+10%+10%+10%, idk if Intervention boosting is multiplicative) and you are at 30+20%+10%. However, they still have Vengeance (+30%), Thrill (+20% max HP), their OWN Rampart (+20%), and Equilibrium for the bleed after the hit (now including a regen effect). Total for them, 40%+30%+20%+20%maxHP. Total for you, 30%+20%+10%. If you don't Sheltron as well as the Intervention, you're behind on mit, by a sizeable amount. Being healed by Flash isn't going to help if the TB oneshots you due to lack of mit. If you go into a TB without Sheltron ready, you're probably going splat, you're already behind in mit count compared to the other tanks, and you are suggesting here that 'no actually you don't need to Sheltron stuff'. So yes, I'd argue that you probably want to have 100 gauge ready for TBs.

Giving PLD back the 20% mitigation on Cover, on all damage taken while Cover is in effect (even if the tether is broken by distance) would probably help, taking the stupid Oath cost off of it would help too. SB Cover was nuts because of all the transfer-able debuffs and shenanigans it could be applied to, eg BRD taking the O11S tether and getting Cover'd for the raidwide, for more uptime. But that's fine IMO because A: players found a creative way to get more uptime (DRK/WAR couldn't do it, but DRK did more damage anyway), and B: we're now looking at a tier where we have nothing but double-TBs. Some can be solo'd, but need invuln to do so (EG Compressed Aero in P7S). If we had 20% mit Cover now, it'd be nowhere near as 'OP' as it was back then, as the fight design doesn't allow as much trickery.

Or we could remove the 100% Block effect on Passage and change it to let the PLD also get the effect of it, allowing it to be used as a pseudo-CD for 15% mit. 'It has two raid mits wow' isn't as special in this day and age it seems, and lining up POA so that everyone's in it is a pain in the ass

[Gserpent]

I don't know how I can be more clear about this, any other tank cannot use two of their short cd mitigations at once

I know, but they don't *need* to. Because their short cooldown skill actually works as designed, whereas the developers inexplicably managed to not notice blocking not applying to dots? For all Yoshida's claims of "they got too good at P8S," it makes me wonder if anyone on the team was actually *playing* Paladin with crafted ilvl gear...

And, by the way, there's an easy way to fix "well if they made Sheltron stop sucking and also made it cost no gauge, it would be OP" - just make Intervention and Sheltron share a 25 sec cooldown. You'd still be able to dump gauge on Clemency, which is in line with Aurora, Oblation, etc.