Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

[Gserpent]

Pretty sure he doesn't even raid outside of normal modes. He's said several incorrect things so far and judging by his post history he just goes into random threads to troll people.

You can literally look up my lodestone. I don't make any effort to hide it. I haven't bothered raiding this expansion, but I've kept up with the strats and clears of my friends so I am familiar with them.

PLD gets a burst of healing once every 60 sec. It's 8 actions (4 Holy Spirit, 1 Confiteor, 3 Blade combo spells) at 400 potency each, for 3200 potency in total. PLD can't casually dump gauge on Sheltron like other tanks can freely use their defensive buttons on cooldown, because PLD currently has to stock 100 gauge to Sheltron+Intervention for every tankbuster. But you can probably figure at least one Sheltron per minute as an average over the course of the fight? So that's another 1000 potency, for ~4200 potency per minute (actually over 1 minute due to GCD timings but whatever!) Almost all of that healing comes in one chain of healing, rather than spread throughout the minute.

Compared to WAR, WAR executes a Storm's Path combo at least four times per minute - figure 2.4 GCD gets you 25 GCDs per minute, 4 of which are used on your IR combo, 6 of which probably get used maintaining Storm's Eye buff, and then you'll have occasional Fell Cleave or IC uses here and there to avoid capping gauge/Infuriate charges. It will fluctuate, but 4 Storm's Paths per minute is fairly consistent. That's 1000 potency of healing, at a speed of roughly 2-3x longer than a standard regen. Assuming you can use it on cooldown or nearly so according to fight script, you can use Bloodwhetting twice in that minute, each time netting 1200 potency from healing and an additional 400 potency from shields. We are, right now, at 4200 total healing/shielding potency for the minute. But wait, there's more! Equilibrium is also a 60 second cooldown, worth 1200p instant healing and another 1000p over 15 sec as a regen. You can add in a Thrill of Battle (effectively a 20% maxHP heal, plus a healing received amp that applies to the WAR's own effects) every other minute, if you wanted to. PLD has healed for a potential 5200 potency in one minute (assuming two Sheltron uses, not guaranteed), while WAR popped off for 7400 potency in that same timeframe (also assuming two Bloodwhetting uses, not guaranteed.)

It's somewhat similar for the other tanks. GNB pops a 200+200 heal+shield on their combo second step, gets 1200p regen from Aurora (two charges, each 60 sec timer), and gets a 900p excog effect from Heart of Corundum, up to twice per minute. DRK has the lowest healing of the tanks, largely relegated to their combo heal (which is 340p) at least as far as raids go (Abyssal Drain is negligible in raids), but has the highest uptime for general mitigation due to Oblation charges, and TBN is TBN. I don't really feel like doing the math on how many combo pops those classes get per minute, but I do know that the numbers were crunched a long time ago and PLD was on the bottom.

It's weird... it's almost like PLD is just missing a whole-ass tool or benefit that the other tanks have. I mean, technically wings gives you 100% block for its duration? If you wanted to do literally 0 DPS for 18 sec, I guess. And you don't have to move at all for 18 sec. There's more to it than just raw healing potency, WAR mitigates a bit less than PLD in exchange for healing more. But even accounting for that, PLD is still behind everyone else - and that's not even factoring in block not functioning on the bleeds they added to tankbusters and raidwides with Abyssos, which puts them even farther behind (hence the gimmicky Sheltron+Intervention plays to account for this, which is why you have to have 100 gauge ready for the tankbusters.)

Guess what? Giving them Clemency on a roughly 25-30 sec cooldown (so, around as long as it takes to build 50 gauge, give or take a bit) would completely fix this. It would add 1000-2000p of healing per minute, subject to gauge management and uptime. Alternatively, they could just add something like 200p of healing or shielding to Royal Authority (or, again, it could go onto Atonement instead, resulting in no sustain from the regular combo but a burst of sustain when it's time to dump Atonement charges.) But I favor a solution that turns a currently useless button into a functional button.

As I've said this whole time, taking Sheltron off the gauge and making it a flat cooldown (probably 25s since that's the same as everyone else), making Clemency oGCD and putting it on the gauge completely fixes PLD's issues with durability compared to the other tanks - assuming, of course, that Sheltron will also affect bleeds. It turns a currently near-useless and iconic ability into one that will be effective and see regular use, and does so without meaningfully harming the class's ability to solo content.

I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, rather than actually considering the impacts of what's being suggested. It's very tiresome.

[Espon]

You can literally look up my lodestone. I don't make any effort to hide it. I haven't bothered raiding this expansion, but I've kept up with the strats and clears of my friends so I am familiar with them.

-pointless babbling-

I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, rather than actually considering the impacts of what's being suggested. It's very tiresome.

It's amazing how good you are at picking random words from what I said in this thread and ignoring everything else. You seem to be under the assumption that I'm perfectly content with paladin right now and yet the very first thing I posted before you came in here and started crapping your diaper everywhere was several issues I have with the job and fixes I think could work that doesn't require the job to be completely reworked. I want to avoid an incident like with what happened with Samurai or Summoner where old players no longer enjoy the job they used to play because of how different it is now.

Maybe you should take more than a few seconds to read what people are actually saying instead of throwing a temper tantrum and telling everyone that disagrees with you to quit the game. It didn't help you win you any arguments when you were a child, and it won't win you any arguments here.

[Rithy255]

It's amazing how good you are at picking random words from what I said in this thread and ignoring everything else. You seem to be under the assumption that I'm perfectly content with paladin right now and yet the very first thing I posted before you came in here and started crapping your diaper everywhere was several issues I have with the job and fixes I think could work that doesn't require the job to be completely reworked. I want to avoid an incident like with what happened with Samurai or Summoner where old players no longer enjoy the job they used to play because of how different it is now.

Maybe you should take more than a few seconds to read what people are actually saying instead of throwing a temper tantrum and telling everyone that disagrees with you to quit the game. It didn't help you win you any arguments when you were a child, and it won't win you any arguments here.

I don't even know what he's talking about tbh, every tank can "freely" use their defensives and PLD can't??? if anything as PLD you can be slightly more flexible then any other tank because you'll normally have shelltron for every tank buster (at least, if you saved up you can also use 100 oath on intervention if your co-tank really needs it). But in the same situation any other tank has to wait 25 seconds (15 in drks cases) if they wanna use their cds on autos...

PLD's gauge I don't think should or needs to become "clemency gauge", I'd like them to expand on how oath gauge works a bit but tying one sustain ability and giving PLD a 25 second mitigation (like every other tank) just really doesn't seem like a good idea to me, I'd much rather Oath gauge become a more interactive, defensive only (still) gauge

I got called mad earlier because I didn't like the direction that pld was going, I think this really sums up how I feel about the mentality of "don't like it just quit"

I'm also not mad that the Paladin is getting reworked it's how it's being reworked, people can again disagree and show disappointment in the direction of the game and still like the game, I have said before that I think PLD needs better defensives and adjustments to its rotation without ruining current pld, I mainly disagree with a total rework and making it like every other tank.

What you suggested (again) Solves the "clemency issue" (I don't think theirs actually a issue with clemency, more that Plds burst sustain isn't controlled). But having the option to OGCD heal and have a consistent source of healing (if you need it) is good.

[Gserpent]

I don't even know what he's talking about tbh, every tank can "freely" use their defensives and PLD can't??? if anything as PLD you can be slightly more flexible then any other tank because you'll normally have shelltron for every tank buster (at least, if you saved up you can also use 100 oath on intervention if your co-tank really needs it). But in the same situation any other tank has to wait 25 seconds (15 in drks cases) if they wanna use their cds on autos...

PLD's gauge I don't think should or needs to become "clemency gauge", I'd like them to expand on how oath gauge works a bit but tying one sustain ability and giving PLD a 25 second mitigation (like every other tank) just really doesn't seem like a good idea to me, I'd much rather Oath gauge become a more interactive, defensive only (still) gauge

I got called mad earlier because I didn't like the direction that pld was going, I think this really sums up how I feel about the mentality of "don't like it just quit"


What you suggested (again) Solves the "clemency issue" (I don't think theirs actually a issue with clemency, more that Plds burst sustain isn't controlled). But having the option to OGCD heal and have a consistent source of healing (if you need it) is good.

I explained why PLD doesn't have free use of Sheltron. I'm sorry if it wasn't explicit enough? Currently, in order to handle tankbusters due to a large portion of Sheltron's mitigation (guaranteed blocking) not working on the bleeds that comprise a large portion of tankbuster damage, PLD groups have to engage in a gimmick where their co-tank uses their defensive skill on the PLD (Nascent Flash, Heart of Corundum, Oblation, etc) and then the PLD hands them Intervention to cover for their lack of that skill on themselves, on top of the PLD also using Sheltron on themselves for the flat 15% mitigation. This requires 100 gauge, obviously. It should also be noted that it takes longer than 25 sec to accrue 50 gauge (swing timer for abyssos sword is 2.24 seconds, before modifications), and this is further extended if the PLD has to stop autoswinging. Others have suggested ways of addressing this different, separate problem.

I told you "if you don't like it just quit" because that's literally your only option here. If you don't like the direction PLD is going, and PLD being homogenized to be "WAR but they have a shield!" is going to be a deal-breaker for you, then you should probably plan your exit because that is exactly what we're going to be getting. WAR is wildly popular, fits Square-Enix's seemingly "we want classes to be as mindless as possible so players can't make meaningful mistakes" design ethos, and PLD is currently suffering from multiple issues affecting both its durability and its DPS.

Moreover, your fixation on solo performance or other things like that is really weird, when PLD isn't even top dog at that anymore. WAR has long since eclipsed PLD at being able to solo things, so why would anyone pick PLD for that job anyway?

[Rithy255]

(Quote was shortened look at og post for better context)

I explained why PLD doesn't have free use of Sheltron. I'm sorry if it wasn't explicit enough? Currently, in order to handle tankbusters due to a large portion of Sheltron's mitigation (guaranteed blocking) not working on the bleeds that comprise a large portion of tankbuster damage, PLD groups have to engage in a gimmick where their co-tank uses their defensive skill on the PLD (Nascent Flash, Heart of Corundum, Oblation, etc) and then the PLD hands them Intervention to cover for their lack of that skill on themselves, on top of the PLD also using Sheltron on themselves for the flat 15% mitigation. This requires 100 gauge, obviously. It should also be noted that it takes longer than 25 sec to accrue 50 gauge (swing timer for abyssos sword is 2.24 seconds, before modifications), and this is further extended if the PLD has to stop autoswinging. Others have suggested ways of addressing this different, separate problem.

No I went over it, you shouldn't even be constantly saving up 100 oath for shelltron/interventions in case of a double tank buster, is the issue I don't actually think you understand how Paladin works if you generally think that's the case, in reality PLD's always going to have access at least for themselves, again No tank really "needs" you to intervention them generally speaking but it's a nice bonus to have if you know a double tank buster is coming, PLD because of two stacks is generally more free then other tanks.

Correction, No It doesn't take longer then 25 seconds, actually through timing it and averages it worked out to filling every 21 seconds to 50, again Incorrect. This is something I even went out and tested/timed in game, again telling people to quit the game is disrespectful calling people "mad", you generally can't understand not taking issue with things but still liking the game "just quit" isn't a good argument beyond that you were calling me mad for no reason really.

It's not my fixation, I take Issue with changing clemency itself, I think people who enjoy solo content and Paladin, also theirs also other cases outside solo content where clemency is again useful. Changing it in a way that doesn't ruin PLD's solo ability or just general ability to have a on demand heal, sure it would "make PLD better" if you gave them a ogcd clemency instead of current clemency but again PLD would also still be good if you kept clemency as it is and either like what was mentioned give clemecy it a way of ogcd healing (Espons clemency suggestion) or give pld a ogcd heal action.

[Gserpent]

(Quote was shortened look at og post for better context)

No I went over it, you shouldn't even be constantly saving up 100 oath for shelltron/interventions in case of a double tank buster, is the issue I don't actually think you understand how Paladin works if you generally think that's the case, in reality PLD's always going to have access at least for themselves, again No tank really "needs" you to intervention them generally speaking but it's a nice bonus to have if you know a double tank buster is coming, PLD because of two stacks is generally more free then other tanks.

Unless you already have the gear, to survive the double tankbusters, PLD must give their buddy Intervention, receive their buddy's skill (Heart of Corundum, Nascent Flash, etc), and use Sheltron. In addition to Rampart or Sentinel (possibly both, if we're talking about crafted ilvls.) This means their buddy doesn't have their own defensive skill (it has to be given to the PLD), which is why you have to use Intervention. The reason for all of this is because you can't block dots, and Abyssos brought in a heavy dot with each tankbuster.

Technically, you could just yell healers adjust and the healers could probably handle it, but this would probably involve some GCD healing, and that's a raid DPS loss. Meanwhile, you can do the above and no DPS is lost. I think PLD is okay once they already have that raid gear, but if you're progging, you either force your healers to sacrifice DPS or you have to stock 100 gauge for the dual tankbusters.

FWIW, PLD is also quite weak in DSR. The friends I watched were running GNB/WAR, so I don't have any... secondhand? experience here, but from what I've heard, PLD struggles a lot in certain phases while the other tanks are completely fine. This, on top of having very low DPS.

[ForsakenRoe]

I know you're a healer main but would it be so bad for PLD to have awesome utility and healing with the trade-off being lowest DPS of the tanks? :P

Sorry, my point wasn't 'this is too op so we cant have it' it was more meant to be 'this would be THIS OP, i don't get why people are saying OGCD Clem would be a nerf to PLD selfsustain'. Personally I think it'd be great if PLD was the 'selfhealing tank' via pure devotion to their oath, it'd be lore-friendly, it'd be a good callback to how Knight in FF1 had limited white magic access (up to level 5 was it? so at least Cure2), and I've never really understood why WAR is the 'selfheal tank', but WAR mains would have me believe that 'does the most damage' is an identity so /shrug

Clemency and Sheltron are the same healing potency. In what way would anyone use clemency over sheltron at this point.

Holy Sheltron >>>>>> Clemency. Just for the shear fact that it gives mitigation (equal to sentinel btw if but brief)...oGCD...and it's a strong heal to boot.

If the PLD were below level 82, would be a good starting example. WAR has the selfhealing effect in Raw Intuition at level 54, and Equilibrium at 58. PLD has nothing until Holy Sheltron, as the selfhealing of the Req window is added by a trait in the late 80s.

If Clemency were made into an Oath spending OGCD and Sheltron were made into a standalone CD (lets say 20s since it takes about 22-23sec to get 50 oath atm), we'd have both at the same time, so there's no 'one VS the other' going on. Besides that, if you use Clemency on someone other than yourself, you get half of the healing too, boosting the total 'effective healing' of Clemency by 50% (good for after a double TB). So, as an example, in current tier there's a lot of bleeds on TBs and Block doesn't mitigate the bleed (only the initial hit). So rather than using Sheltron and Intervention, it'd potentially be better to use a buffed Intervention, get the 'helpy button' from your cotank in return eg Nascent/TBN/Heart of whatsit, and then Clemency the other tank after the damage hits. Further, if Sheltron was a free standalone OGCD, you could throw it in for free too.

Also a consideration to make: WAR's Bloodwhetting is 'free' every 25s, gives 400p shield, and 400p healing per GCD spent under it's effect (total 1600p EHP). Clemency costs a GCD and is 1000p EHP (1500 if used on ally). Sheltron gives 4 ticks of 250p, totalling 1000EHP, but costs 50 gauge. So moving Sheltron off of the gauge actually makes it more comparable to Bloodwhetting in single target. I think I'd rather they remove the selfhealing from the Req window, and made this gauge spending Clemency change, it'd mean the PLD can choose when to heal, instead of having to hope that the 2400p healing of the Req combo happens to line up with damage

Now Cover? THAT could get the boot or trait up treatment...cover is useless practically.

Just had a funny idea: what if we rework Cover, so that it's like Thunderclap or Icarus, where we can use it on an ally from, say, 30y away, and we rush to their location, then apply the tether with 12y range as it works now? PLD would have an ally-based gapcloser, allowing it to get around the field a lot faster than the other tanks, that could be cool and unique? Definitely not just stealing Intervene from 'other game' no no

Unless you already have the gear, to survive the double tankbusters, PLD must give their buddy Intervention, receive their buddy's skill (Heart of Corundum, Nascent Flash, etc), and use Sheltron. In addition to Rampart or Sentinel (possibly both, if we're talking about crafted ilvls.) This means their buddy doesn't have their own defensive skill (it has to be given to the PLD), which is why you have to use Intervention. The reason for all of this is because you can't block dots, and Abyssos brought in a heavy dot with each tankbuster.

God the difference between PLD and WAR in P7S week 1 was night and day, I could just Krasis Soteria the WAR and he'd be fine for the bleed, but the PLDs would dissolve like paper in the rain... Holy Sheltron gives 15% mit for the first 4 seconds, on top of it's block effect. Since Block doesn't affect DOTs, maybe the strength of Blocking needs to be reduced, and the strength of that 4sec mit increased, to rebalance PLD to be stronger against DOTs? This would make regular Sheltron weaker, so maybe moving the bonus 'timed it right' mit to regular Sheltron would be needed to compensate, with Holy Sheltron being the 'it now does regen!' upgrade

Screw it, make the 'timed it right' mit 25-30%, if PLD is going to be stuck with one less mit tool than the other tanks, make it's current tools strong to compensate, so it can take a TB with one CD where other tanks would need 2. Make it become the 'tanky tank' you'd expect it to be with a whole shield strapped to it's arm. I miss SB when blocks were 30% in BIS Alphascape gear, Sheltron was a Vengeance on a 22 sec CD it was great

[Rithy255]

Unless you already have the gear, to survive the double tankbusters, PLD must give their buddy Intervention, receive their buddy's skill (Heart of Corundum, Nascent Flash, etc), and use Sheltron. In addition to Rampart or Sentinel (possibly both, if we're talking about crafted ilvls.) This means their buddy doesn't have their own defensive skill (it has to be given to the PLD), which is why you have to use Intervention. The reason for all of this is because you can't block dots, and Abyssos brought in a heavy dot with each tankbuster.

Technically, you could just yell healers adjust and the healers could probably handle it, but this would probably involve some GCD healing, and that's a raid DPS loss. Meanwhile, you can do the above and no DPS is lost. I think PLD is okay once they already have that raid gear, but if you're progging, you either force your healers to sacrifice DPS or you have to stock 100 gauge for the dual tankbusters.

FWIW, PLD is also quite weak in DSR. The friends I watched were running GNB/WAR, so I don't have any... secondhand? experience here, but from what I've heard, PLD struggles a lot in certain phases while the other tanks are completely fine. This, on top of having very low DPS.

Ok so other tanks in the same situation who don't have the benefit of intervention seem to be perfectly fine taking tank double busters, what's exclusive about PLD that if they dont use intervention (when any other tank would at most use something like Oblation, a skill only Drk has), that the other tank wouldn't "survive" Also, if your Gunbreaker uses Heart of corumdum on you or your warrior uses flash, then you could likely sentinel and intervention them without having to store up gauge, acting as if the PLD "has" to save up to 100 in every instance of a fight makes no sense when you have so many options where you don't have to use intervention all the time.

If Paladin was the only Job that can use its short cd on themselves and their co-tank, otherwise the healers would have a "major dps loss" PLD would all of a sudden become a must pick, but no they balance the fights not around PLD's unique trait of being able to store up to 100 gauge, using it on both is likely "Optimal" but when you're at the stage of being optimal, you tend to know when a duel tank buster is coming... I really don't see what even point you're trying to make here.

PLD does struggle, the Issues aren't clemency or oath gauge, it stems from a ton of Issues, Pretty sure theirs stuns in the latest ultimate that holy shelltron just doesn't block for one, They're the only tank lacking any personal defensive or anything equal to a a "small 60 second, Such as Oblation, aurora, equilibrium", They have some Jank and personal things that could be buffed, Having two raid wides on paper is good but I find passage of arms very situational and DV can be more clunky opposed to shake it off.