Bring Back Kaiten

[Kalaam]

Honestly I want more stuff to be situational, to have choices between single target and AoE (other example, during the Melusine fight in 2nd coil, having parts of your rotation AoE by default can mess up the mechanics).
Ofc then there is the issue of button bloat

[CelestiCer]

In the past, we have been disagreeing on the impact merging Shoha1+2 would have but I must admit I like those two points.

I agree with Deithwen.

Remember, our button/skill merging solutions only was mentioned to retain " Hissatsu: Kaiten " due to Dev's statement to remove it and the near non-existing " Button Bloat issue ". Our proposals was meant to keep SAM gameplay near the same, the proposals being...

• Fusing Guren/Senei and Shoha I/II

Turn them into AoE versions with 1st target hit max potency + Fall off AoE damage

• Midare turns into Tsubame, Ikishoten turns into Ogi Namikiri

Gameplay 100% the same only buttons moved as activations that's it.

FFXIV barely has any situations requiring more precise single target options in our OGCD's. FFXIV would need reflective mechanics which is rare or mobs that blow because you hit the wrong mob(s) in between a pack which is pretty much non-existing. Added bonus to the proposals? Zero Damage Loss, Zero Gameplay Loss.

Lastly Square's final statement " to make room For Future changes ", well with our proposal? buttons cleared, SAM's kit compressed and kept the same with room for new like situational skills whilst returning our " Kaiten ". Which is feedback they ignored, but that's of course to the surprise of no one.

[RyuuZero]

I agree with Deithwen.

Remember, our button/skill merging solutions only was mentioned to retain " Hissatsu: Kaiten " due to Dev's statement to remove it and the near non-existing " Button Bloat issue ". Our proposals was meant to keep SAM gameplay near the same, the proposals being...

• Fusing Guren/Senei and Shoha I/II

Turn them into AoE versions with 1st target hit max potency + Fall off AoE damage

• Midare turns into Tsubame, Ikishoten turns into Ogi Namikiri

Gameplay 100% the same only buttons moved as activations that's it.

FFXIV barely has any situations requiring more precise single target options in our OGCD's. FFXIV would need reflective mechanics which is rare or mobs that blow because you hit the wrong mob(s) in between a pack which is pretty much non-existing. Added bonus to the proposals? Zero Damage Loss, Zero Gameplay Loss.

Lastly Square's final statement " to make room For Future changes ", well with our proposal? buttons cleared, SAM's kit compressed and kept the same with room for new like situational skills whilst returning our " Kaiten ". Which is feedback they ignored, but that's of course to the surprise of no one.

by merging Shoha1&2 and Guren&Senei you religate entire resources to AoE, in situations like the Drake Family in the Variant Dungeon you would sit on those resources which goes against the fantasy of the Samurai and would change SAM Gameplay forever, thus I repeat my points:

1. turn Tsubamegaeshi into a follow Up to Iaijutsu, just how it is with Ogi Namikiri right now
2. turn Senei and Guren into buffs for Shinten and Kyuten, activated by Ikishoten

[RyuuZero]

Honestly I want more stuff to be situational, to have choices between single target and AoE (other example, during the Melusine fight in 2nd coil, having parts of your rotation AoE by default can mess up the mechanics).
Ofc then there is the issue of button bloat

well Ikishoten is on a 2min cd and Senei aswell as Guren are on a 2min cd..
so why not turning Senei into a Buff for Shinten and Guren into a Buff for Kyuten, activated by Ikishoten?
I think it even already exist on Warrior, doesn't Battlecry changes Fell Cleave and Decimate into other skills that do the same but more damage?
I say the same could be done to Samurai^^

[Kalaam]

well Ikishoten is on a 2min cd and Senei aswell as Guren are on a 2min cd..
so why not turning Senei into a Buff for Shinten and Guren into a Buff for Kyuten, activated by Ikishoten?
I think it even already exist on Warrior, doesn't Battlecry changes Fell Cleave and Decimate into other skills that do the same but more damage?
I say the same could be done to Samurai^^

That could work out I think, given that Kenki as a ressource isn't really an issue anyway a 2 minute ressource generation button isn't that useful.

[Quor]

by merging Shoha1&2 and Guren&Senei you religate entire resources to AoE, in situations like the Drake Family in the Variant Dungeon you would sit on those resources which goes against the fantasy of the Samurai and would change SAM Gameplay forever, thus I repeat my points:

1. turn Tsubamegaeshi into a follow Up to Iaijutsu, just how it is with Ogi Namikiri right now
2. turn Senei and Guren into buffs for Shinten and Kyuten, activated by Ikishoten

On the one hand that's true, but on the other it's both such a niche situation and also an incredibly low-stakes one. You can take as much time as you want in the variant dungeon, as long as you don't take the entire instance timer, to finish things. So while what you say is technically true, it's going a bit far to treat it as justification for keeping Shoha II etc. the way they are.

Now, if there were actual meaningful stakes to it, or there was more than a single instance where being able to choose *not* to aoe was needed, then you would have a point. I'd like to see that kind of decision-making occur with more frequency, but the sad truth is that this won't happen outside of optional side content such as the variant dungeons. I highly doubt we'll ever see a situation, even in top-end ultimate/savage stuff, where choosing to ST instead of aoe will demanded in certain situations in order to achieve victory. Even with the drakes you don't "lose" if you kill them out of order, you just don't unlock a special area. If we're going to see more stuff like that going forward from here, then it's almost certain that SE will avoid the fail-state approach in favor of a "branching paths to victory" one.

[RyuuZero]

On the one hand that's true, but on the other it's both such a niche situation and also an incredibly low-stakes one. You can take as much time as you want in the variant dungeon, as long as you don't take the entire instance timer, to finish things. So while what you say is technically true, it's going a bit far to treat it as justification for keeping Shoha II etc. the way they are.

Now, if there were actual meaningful stakes to it, or there was more than a single instance where being able to choose *not* to aoe was needed, then you would have a point. I'd like to see that kind of decision-making occur with more frequency, but the sad truth is that this won't happen outside of optional side content such as the variant dungeons. I highly doubt we'll ever see a situation, even in top-end ultimate/savage stuff, where choosing to ST instead of aoe will demanded in certain situations in order to achieve victory. Even with the drakes you don't "lose" if you kill them out of order, you just don't unlock a special area. If we're going to see more stuff like that going forward from here, then it's almost certain that SE will avoid the fail-state approach in favor of a "branching paths to victory" one.

yeah but that's what I mean when I say 'like the Dragoon', the DRG builds up their resources to use them on One Skill (Geirskogul, Nastrond, Wyrmwind Thrust) all of which are AoE and there is no Single Target alternative to those skills in the DRGs Kit.
You want this kind of Variety? Cool! play Samurai! yet by merging the Single Target and AoE you only get different animations of those DRG Skills.. true in different AoE Shapes but that's all you do, you will only work towards AoE skills and that's not what a Samurai is about. Funny that you doubt that we will never see such situation where choosing Single Target and AoE will be demanded because there was Coil T7 and Alexander 4 Savage, now true Samurai didn't existed at that time (and didn't had those skills available at that lvl) but those situation do exist, in addition should we disregard variety only because it's a niche situation? honestly I blame the English Translation for the idea of merging Shoha1+2 since in English it's just Shoha II, in german and japanese it's Mumyo Shoha

[Xaphire]

I'll never understand why players are beating this drum so hard. I raided two tiers on SAM in Shadowbringers and have been playing it again in EXs/normal raids/Aglaia and not having kaiten is a giant nothing burger. I don't feel a real difference because there's another button to press instead of it. Kaiten was just busy work before every iaijutsu. I didn't miss it.

[CelestiCer]

I'll never understand why players are beating this drum so hard. I raided two tiers on SAM in Shadowbringers and have been playing it again in EXs/normal raids/Aglaia and not having kaiten is a giant nothing burger. I don't feel a real difference because there's another button to press instead of it. Kaiten was just busy work before every iaijutsu. I didn't miss it.

I don't know... it's almost like players liked Kaiten over a " Nothing Burger Shinten Spamming Gauge " I guess? Probably never as understandable as players beating the drum on other players beating their drums on Kaiten, and we have gone full circle... yet again =u=;

1. turn Tsubamegaeshi into a follow Up to Iaijutsu, just how it is with Ogi Namikiri right now
2. turn Senei and Guren into buffs for Shinten and Kyuten, activated by Ikishoten

First solution seems near unanimous. But your 2nd suggestion? You want...

• Senei/Guren buttons as 2 separate buffs...
• As 2 OGCD's to buff 2 other OGCD's...
• Connected to a 2 minute buff Ikishoten...

This solution really overcomplicates a very obvious solution to maintain a niche that is an very excessively rare problem currently? when you decide to not hold your OGCD's. Need to not hit something? just don't cast your AoE it's that simple, which is very rare situation. It just sounds like two 2min discount Kaiten cooldown activations for Kyuten and Shinten. But, we can agree to disagree.

[Yeastyloins]

yeah but that's what I mean when I say 'like the Dragoon', the DRG builds up their resources to use them on One Skill (Geirskogul, Nastrond, Wyrmwind Thrust) all of which are AoE and there is no Single Target alternative to those skills in the DRGs Kit.
You want this kind of Variety? Cool! play Samurai! yet by merging the Single Target and AoE you only get different animations of those DRG Skills.. true in different AoE Shapes but that's all you do, you will only work towards AoE skills and that's not what a Samurai is about. Funny that you doubt that we will never see such situation where choosing Single Target and AoE will be demanded because there was Coil T7 and Alexander 4 Savage, now true Samurai didn't existed at that time (and didn't had those skills available at that lvl) but those situation do exist, in addition should we disregard variety only because it's a niche situation? honestly I blame the English Translation for the idea of merging Shoha1+2 since in English it's just Shoha II, in german and japanese it's Mumyo Shoha

So if I'm understanding this right, you're advocating for button bloat on the off chance the Dev's will design a fight that exclusively only gives SAM an advantage over every other job both on a mechanical and DPS level?