WAR needs a rework

[Rithy255]

Paladin is hardly getting picked in Savage/Ultimate raids, specially week 1 clears, carrying abilities effectively useless and out of date against modern standards. Raiders like me hate the current Paladin, it's garbage, there's no point playing a tank requiring horrible conditions against a tank that has more miti, better DPS, and adapts comps better.

Not a Issue with PLD, it's a issue with fitting everything into "burst meta" also PLD isn't that bad, it's suboptimal it can clear perfectly fine, These "modern raiders" you talk about, tend to make a big deal out of a job not performing as well as the others. Sure I think things about PLD could be changed, I've always liked the idea that your skill speed and spell speed were merged on PLD, I think improving some of it's defensives like cover and giving it more support is also good (Although "modern raiders" only really look at damage numbers)

Theirs also no point reworking every tank to be a burst job and making them play virtually the same, having the same bursty jobs, the issue isn't with PLD's design it's one of the very few jobs that aren't designed around 120 minutes, which again wouldn't be a issue if raid buffs weren't designed like they are now.

Being not "picked" doesn't make the job design bad it just makes it's output bad, If PLD was top damage I assure you despite how it's designed currently "modern raiders" would be picking it, because the only thing that matters to people like that is base line damage numbers and not how the job feels.

I honestly rather PLD remain "trash" and not good in comparison in raids if it means the jobs still fun, If I wanted to play a DPS burst meta job I'd go play dark knight or gunbreaker. I play Paladin because I actually feel like the job is rewarding to play and dynamic.

EDIT:
if 6.3 manages to fix PLD's burst a bit without removing its core gameplay then that's good, I want the job to be more viable just not at the sake of ruining something that is genuinely fun

[baklava151]

that reminds me, something that could be fun for War, might be a trait that speeds up its GCD to MNK levels of fast. Not sure how practical/impractical it would be though.

Edit: Btw. i really enjoy current WAR, its my favourite tank in terms of rotation, followed by GNB.

I had a similar idea for DRK and Delirium but I think with how many oGCDs it has, it would just make DRK super clunky (HW/SB Blood Weapon still sounds cool though). I think it could work with WAR since most of its damage comes from GCDs.

[Undeadfire]

I've always liked the idea that your skill speed and spell speed were merged on PLD, I think improving some of it's defensives like cover and giving it more support is also good (Although "modern raiders" only really look at damage numbers)

Sounds nice on table, it's horrible overall to balance around timings. Modern raiders don't look at only damage, they look on mitigation tool kits included and Paladin has essentially nothing in comparison. DOTs do not register shield block Mitigation and Paladin only has 2 self cooldowns in that regard.

Theirs also no point reworking every tank to be a burst job and making them play virtually the same, having the same bursty jobs, the issue isn't with PLD's design it's one of the very few jobs that aren't designed around 120 minutes, which again wouldn't be a issue if raid buffs weren't designed like they are now.

Pld was fine in SHBs as I keep mentioning, it synced 60s-2 mins with an manipulation and wasn't a loss.

Being not "picked" doesn't make the job design bad it just makes it's output bad, If PLD was top damage I assure you despite how it's designed currently "modern raiders" would be picking it, because the only thing that matters to people like that is base line damage numbers and not how the job feels.

Not really until it's rotation has optimised taking several weeks. Paladin going in blind content it's DPS is below, or on par a Healer.

[Zarkovitch]

The gauge need to be more use outside of fell cleave or decimate spender. I hope they do something about the gameplay being lackluster.

[Rithy255]

Sounds nice on table, it's horrible overall to balance around timings. Modern raiders don't look at only damage, they look on mitigation tool kits included and Paladin has essentially nothing in comparison. DOTs do not register shield block Mitigation and Paladin only has 2 self cooldowns in that regard.



Pld was fine in SHBs as I keep mentioning, it synced 60s-2 mins with an manipulation and wasn't a loss.



Not really until it's rotation has optimised taking several weeks. Paladin going in blind content it's DPS is below, or on par a Healer.

Lets go over this:

1. Mitigation, I actually agree that PLD's mitigation is lacking I would like to see more defensive cooldowns, maybe reworking it's self healing (so it's still there or even stronger) so it's not tied to rotation, it should also have at least one more personal, I believe it lacks 2 self mitigations, having 2 raid wides doesn't really make up for it, also Blocks should work aganist dots, Intervention can also be buffed a bit so it's not worse holy shelltron for a friend, In general you can make it's mitigations less janky, rework cover ect. I agree that PLDS the worst defensive tank when it should really be one of the strongest ones. But every time I mention PLD's mitigations being clunky and bad compared to other tanks I get "only dps matters!" (not from you, but most people).

2. PLD SHB was good, I prefer EW PLD in general from gameplay, it's a bit more Janky, SHB PLD struggled a lot more defensively then EW PLD, but it was still viable, you could never really MT as PLD unless you wanted a DPS loss, there was general clunkyness to the design of SHB PLD. But in general it was a good job from a rotational standpoint.

3. Pretty sure you're incorrect that PLD will do "Healer damage" in unoptimized situations this seems like a exaggeration, it will generally be a bit behind warrior in damage, for sure PLD needs the be the most "Optimised" but I see that as a strength in the job, if you're able to do more damage because you optimised your rotation for that fight, it actually makes the job more interesting.


I'm not saying any changes to PLD would be bad, but I don't think I'm hopeful for the rework.

[Undeadfire]

2. PLD SHB was good, I prefer EW PLD in general from gameplay, it's a bit more Janky, SHB PLD struggled a lot more defensively then EW PLD, but it was still viable, you could never really MT as PLD unless you wanted a DPS loss, there was general clunkyness to the design of SHB PLD. But in general it was a good job from a rotational standpoint.

If you call SHBs Pld janky, you're very, very questionable. Except for War, it was the most balanced Xpac out of all tanks and Paladin output was on par with GNB/DRK and adapt to raid buffs as every other tank job could. EW Paladin has been an absolute mess with it's rotation and could no way sync raid buffs without being whipped in the back. Despite the flaw being unable to face tank anything, it still operated a lot better.

[Rithy255]

If you call SHBs Pld janky, you're very, very questionable. Except for War, it was the most balanced Xpac out of all tanks and Paladin output was on par with GNB/DRK and adapt to raid buffs as every other tank job could. EW Paladin has been an absolute mess with it's rotation and could no way sync raid buffs without being whipped in the back. Despite the flaw being unable to face tank anything, it still operated a lot better.

I said ew pld was more janky then SHB PLD hence saying "I prefer EW PLD in general from gameplay, it's a bit more Janky".

so yeah I didn't say SHB pld was a super Janky mess, but there was general clunkyness on somethings OLD req is a good example if you fainted well rip magic for a while, Spirits with in forced you to OT, cover still existed (It's still on ew pld), There was some actual problems with SHB paladin, but SHB paladin is overall less jank then ew PLD, they're janky in different ways. it can be true that both were a bit janky for different reasons, but ew PLD is more Jank.

PLD's output being on par to DRK/GNB doesn't really matter to it's "gameplay" but yes you can say PLD was viable, generally because GNB/PLD did the most damage. Again "gameplay" and "output" are different things I rather PLD be doing the least amount of damage and still be fun, then be a drk/gnb clone, In general I want output to be high, but I want pld to be Fun.

EW rotation, is a bit messy, almost as I said "I'm not saying any changes to PLD would be bad" I wouldn't mind some changes to make it's rotation synch up better, but I don't think we're getting that, it looks like we're getting changes that will just simplify base PLD to something that resembles other tank jobs. I want PLD's rotation to actually be similar to what we had in SHB if possible with the blades combo acting as your dot reapply

but the issue lies more in synching with raid buffs, that's why PLD's SHB sustained dps doesn't work, despite all of EW's jank the issue isn't the Janky rotation it's PLD is a sustained job not a "burst" job, making PLD a burst Job would mean changing the job fundamentally, the issue we're having is I'm talking about not fixing up some PLD jank I'm talking about how they want to make it burst more into 120's even if you fixed PLD's rotation up to fit 60 seconds it wouldn't burst enough, this comes with how PLD has two burst phases instead of 1 big one.

"fixing plds rotation to be less Janky" would only really require some skill speed and spell speed synching (aslong as it's 60 seconds), not any major ability changes.

[Undeadfire]

We're not getting anywhere with this topic, agree to disagree.

We're talking 2 different views, and as we're both aware, I want Paladin to be useful in raids and loved SHBs Pld, it was perfect imo.

[Rithy255]

We're not getting anywhere with this topic, agree to disagree.

We're talking 2 different views, and as we're both aware, I want Paladin to be useful in raids and loved SHBs Pld, it was perfect imo.

I disagree that shb PLD was perfect, it was anything but to me (still fun but it felt even weaker defensively and I dislike being delegated to OT due to spirits within, there was some jank towards it), I really liked a lot of the sustain it got and the more magic it got in ew, it feels more complete to me. But I I do still think it can be improved, it's current jank isn't really great either.

We can both (hopefully) agree on making PLD's rotation synch better in 60's, that we want better for it's defensive side, I want a fun job that outputs good enough to compete with DRK/GNB, right now both jobs are better defensively and do better damage, it's not a good spot for PLD and I hope we can both agree that some good postive changes could be made for the PLD.

I generally think PLD's a fun job rotation wise but I wouldn't mind changes that make it more enjoyable, my issue comes with that I don't want the job design to be completely ruined into something that doesn't resemble current PLD or Shb PLD. I believe it's rotation is one of the best tank rotations (but the issue is it's very janky and doesn't work under 2minute meta).

[Mithron]

I love PLD's current rotation and how it feels (if you do all your Atonements and just play like raid buffs don't exist), I simply don't like the two minute burst meta, their defensives not being good enough, or that Clemancy isn't an OGCD. There's minor gripes about Shield Bash, Cover utility, and wings but mostly it's the other issues, and HG CD being too long for most relevant content like Barb ex.