WAR needs a rework

[RyuDragnier]

Giving WAR haste would be cool, but you risk seriously pissing off the DRK population lol. Then again, maybe this is par for the course.

Oh it would, considering that was part of DRK's original identity.

[Rithy255]

Giving WAR haste would be cool, but you risk seriously pissing off the DRK population lol. Then again, maybe this is par for the course.

Could just give it to drk tbh.
I'm of the opinion that Dark Knight is badly designed currently. But Warrior also.
Drk feels like "slap a bunch of OGCDS and damage 1, 2, 3" it copies too much from warriors design

Warrior SHB > EW is a downgrade from a "fun perspective" SHB warrior was actually somewhat fun and more interesting to me, EW warrior feels really boring to play



Both need changes Imo, just that cuz drk got big numbers now most people are happy with it. I want a total rework of the Job but instead they decided to change PLD because it wasn't boring enough.

[Undeadfire]

I want a total rework of the Job but instead they decided to change PLD because it wasn't boring enough.

Paladin is hardly getting picked in Savage/Ultimate raids, specially week 1 clears, carrying abilities effectively useless and out of date against modern standards. Raiders like me hate the current Paladin, it's garbage, there's no point playing a tank requiring horrible conditions against a tank that has more miti, better DPS, and adapts comps better.

[Rithy255]

Paladin is hardly getting picked in Savage/Ultimate raids, specially week 1 clears, carrying abilities effectively useless and out of date against modern standards. Raiders like me hate the current Paladin, it's garbage, there's no point playing a tank requiring horrible conditions against a tank that has more miti, better DPS, and adapts comps better.

Not a Issue with PLD, it's a issue with fitting everything into "burst meta" also PLD isn't that bad, it's suboptimal it can clear perfectly fine, These "modern raiders" you talk about, tend to make a big deal out of a job not performing as well as the others. Sure I think things about PLD could be changed, I've always liked the idea that your skill speed and spell speed were merged on PLD, I think improving some of it's defensives like cover and giving it more support is also good (Although "modern raiders" only really look at damage numbers)

Theirs also no point reworking every tank to be a burst job and making them play virtually the same, having the same bursty jobs, the issue isn't with PLD's design it's one of the very few jobs that aren't designed around 120 minutes, which again wouldn't be a issue if raid buffs weren't designed like they are now.

Being not "picked" doesn't make the job design bad it just makes it's output bad, If PLD was top damage I assure you despite how it's designed currently "modern raiders" would be picking it, because the only thing that matters to people like that is base line damage numbers and not how the job feels.

I honestly rather PLD remain "trash" and not good in comparison in raids if it means the jobs still fun, If I wanted to play a DPS burst meta job I'd go play dark knight or gunbreaker. I play Paladin because I actually feel like the job is rewarding to play and dynamic.

EDIT:
if 6.3 manages to fix PLD's burst a bit without removing its core gameplay then that's good, I want the job to be more viable just not at the sake of ruining something that is genuinely fun

[Undeadfire]

I've always liked the idea that your skill speed and spell speed were merged on PLD, I think improving some of it's defensives like cover and giving it more support is also good (Although "modern raiders" only really look at damage numbers)

Sounds nice on table, it's horrible overall to balance around timings. Modern raiders don't look at only damage, they look on mitigation tool kits included and Paladin has essentially nothing in comparison. DOTs do not register shield block Mitigation and Paladin only has 2 self cooldowns in that regard.

Theirs also no point reworking every tank to be a burst job and making them play virtually the same, having the same bursty jobs, the issue isn't with PLD's design it's one of the very few jobs that aren't designed around 120 minutes, which again wouldn't be a issue if raid buffs weren't designed like they are now.

Pld was fine in SHBs as I keep mentioning, it synced 60s-2 mins with an manipulation and wasn't a loss.

Being not "picked" doesn't make the job design bad it just makes it's output bad, If PLD was top damage I assure you despite how it's designed currently "modern raiders" would be picking it, because the only thing that matters to people like that is base line damage numbers and not how the job feels.

Not really until it's rotation has optimised taking several weeks. Paladin going in blind content it's DPS is below, or on par a Healer.

[Marxam]

DRK used to have haste. Blood Weapon in SB gave 10% haste and Delirium increased it's duration. So its ironic how SB's Dark Arts spam was reworked into shadow spam but somehow became less fun.

3.0-4.1 is still peak war and would be considered broken by todays standard. Berserk was 50% attack power (eventually getting nerfed to 20%, then removed entirely), Bloodbath synergized with Berserk and Vengeance for insane heals for 25 secs (90 sec cd btw, the same as Berserk), Storm's Path was 100% reprisal uptime, Storms Eye was slashing debufff for NIN and other tanks, Homlgang was 3 mins (same duration as PLD Sentinel), Unchained removed damage penalty of Defiance, cross-class with MNK meant it had access to Mantra, Second Wind and Internal Release (crit up).

Needless to say WAR is still paying for that and its probably why it hits like a wet noodle despite showing "bigger" dmg numbers. You would think that bigger numbers would do bigger dmg but apparently quantity > quality. Its no wonder why DRK, an ogcd focused job is better than WAR, a gcd focused job. All they need to do is buff IC/PR by like 20-40 potency and that should bring it in line with DRK and GNB. No need for excessive ogcds reworks, just make the gcds hit harder during bursts which ironically WAR used to be back in 3.0. It just didn't line up with NIN's TA so it was "balanced". If it did line up with NIN TA, it might have gotten a rework mid expansion.

[Absurdity]

Needless to say WAR is still paying for that and its probably why it hits like a wet noodle despite showing "bigger" dmg numbers. You would think that bigger numbers would do bigger dmg but apparently quantity > quality.

Right now I'm not even sure if warrior has either quantity or quality.

Even with guaranteed direct crits and the damage bonus from your direct hit stat the potencies are still incredibly underwhelming.

Your Primal Rend, even with all the damage modifiers you get, only amounts to about as much as 2 non crit/direct hit Blasting Zones that a GnB does in 60 seconds.

[Undeadfire]

We're not getting anywhere with this topic, agree to disagree.

We're talking 2 different views, and as we're both aware, I want Paladin to be useful in raids and loved SHBs Pld, it was perfect imo.

[Rithy255]

We're not getting anywhere with this topic, agree to disagree.

We're talking 2 different views, and as we're both aware, I want Paladin to be useful in raids and loved SHBs Pld, it was perfect imo.

I disagree that shb PLD was perfect, it was anything but to me (still fun but it felt even weaker defensively and I dislike being delegated to OT due to spirits within, there was some jank towards it), I really liked a lot of the sustain it got and the more magic it got in ew, it feels more complete to me. But I I do still think it can be improved, it's current jank isn't really great either.

We can both (hopefully) agree on making PLD's rotation synch better in 60's, that we want better for it's defensive side, I want a fun job that outputs good enough to compete with DRK/GNB, right now both jobs are better defensively and do better damage, it's not a good spot for PLD and I hope we can both agree that some good postive changes could be made for the PLD.

I generally think PLD's a fun job rotation wise but I wouldn't mind changes that make it more enjoyable, my issue comes with that I don't want the job design to be completely ruined into something that doesn't resemble current PLD or Shb PLD. I believe it's rotation is one of the best tank rotations (but the issue is it's very janky and doesn't work under 2minute meta).

[Mithron]

I love PLD's current rotation and how it feels (if you do all your Atonements and just play like raid buffs don't exist), I simply don't like the two minute burst meta, their defensives not being good enough, or that Clemancy isn't an OGCD. There's minor gripes about Shield Bash, Cover utility, and wings but mostly it's the other issues, and HG CD being too long for most relevant content like Barb ex.