Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[T-Owl]

I can't even understand why we are still debating on "X job is harder than Y".
All jobs are getting easier, positionnals barely exists anymore, casters gets more and more instant cast and mobility.

At this point, every midcore player have the necessary skill it takes to learn the basics of a job within an hour.
The exception being SMN that will ask at most 10 minutes.

This is not Heavensward where all jobs were quite punishing.
This is Endwalker where most jobs press 1 2 3 and plays a specific partition every minutes.

To be honest, I feel like the only disparity in difficulty where the differences really matter that it starts to feel unfair is SMN, because they have simplicty and are fully mobile over most of their rotation. But SMN also kind of has the issue that it comes off like a level 60 job playing with level 90s in terms of its toolkit. With ranged dps, Bard is kind of an outlier, but the different to Bard and Machinist, who I would rank somewhat equal, aren't as massive.

[Aikaal]

To be honest, I feel like the only disparity in difficulty where the differences really matter that it starts to feel unfair is SMN, because they have simplicty and are fully mobile over most of their rotation. But SMN also kind of has the issue that it comes off like a level 60 job playing with level 90s in terms of its toolkit. With ranged dps, Bard is kind of an outlier, but the different to Bard and Machinist, who I would rank somewhat equal, aren't as massive.

SMN is extremely strong at 70 with UCoB. Summoner's core rotation doesn't change starting at 50. They have the most simplistic and frustration rotation. It is really simple but the moment you delay buff windows, Summoners have nothing to make them hold. You either desync your Bahamut or you spam ruin III. It's terrible to the point you can argue optimizing SMN is neither easy nor difficult. It is simply impossible.

[Aurora428]

SMN was full uptime in Shadowbringers (save for buggy pet pathing). It wasn't "taxed" back then, but suddenly is now when it has extraneous movement that doesn't net them any extra uptime compared to their ShB selves, which was entirely sufficient with little planning.

Is no longer needing to save one charge of egi command moves for movement really worth 600 dps? Just being "easy" is horrible reasoning.

[Rithy255]

Mobility is actually a downside for caster DPS, RDM in particular so I guess they should gain DPS from that above Melee DPS?
Positionals are akin to the procs RDM don't always get and they lose 20 potency per proc they didn't get so I can this balances for positionals
Monks have Mantra which is a pretty good raid utility for survivability and yet they are currently the top dog so I guess they should nerf monks?

I agree Raise should be more 2% to 3% but let me tell you that it's been 3 years that a lot of RDM complains about that tax and they want raise removed. Some jobs are better at prog yes. BLM isn't great for prog. Monk is fantastic. Best DPS in the game. Basic melee survival kit with 3 personal mits for themselves and Mantra. Monk is ridiculously good. Yet, with all that extra support, SE is still giving them the highest DPS. So I can see why some people saying raise is only worth 1%.

I don't disagree Red mage isn't what I was generally talking about as you give up a lot having to be at melee ranged, also Red mage deals with cast times generally likely why summoner is way more used then rdm and Blm.

I think a 10% healing buff has generally less use cases then raise or even magick barrier (but it's still a advantage) and also monks meant to be "hard" (at least compared to other dps), but it also has strong survivability, I generally think monk should be around samurai, melee dps are fairly well balanced (compared to each other), to be fair monk is pretty good right now, despite low use (it's got less then reaper, for some reason).

Lets say RDM and BLM both have no utility (BLM doesn't get self barrier, RDM doesn't get any utility such as raise or magick barrier), I think RDM should actually be very close in total damage to BLM as both have mobility struggles. While summoner is generally more free (and easier to get into, rdm rotation isn't hard to be fair), although I don't think summoners should get punished too hard "for being ez" more because they've just got so much mobility. (I'd actually like them to return Dot's and some stuff to summoner to flesh it out, right now it's just not great imo).

[Aikaal]

I don't disagree Red mage isn't what I was generally talking about as you give up a lot having to be at melee ranged, also Red mage deals with cast times generally likely why summoner is way more used then rdm and Blm.

I think a 10% healing buff has generally less use cases then raise or even magick barrier (but it's still a advantage) and also monks meant to be "hard" (at least compared to other dps), but it also has strong survivability, I generally think monk should be around samurai, melee dps are fairly well balanced (compared to each other), to be fair monk is pretty good right now, despite low use (it's got less then reaper, for some reason).

Lets say RDM and BLM both have no utility (BLM doesn't get self barrier, RDM doesn't get any utility such as raise or magick barrier), I think RDM should actually be very close in total damage to BLM as both have mobility struggles. While summoner is generally more free (and easier to get into, rdm rotation isn't hard to be fair), although I don't think summoners should get punished too hard "for being ez" more because they've just got so much mobility. (I'd actually like them to return Dot's and some stuff to summoner to flesh it out, right now it's just not great imo).

Except... Summoner has no gained anything from that mobility. In Shadowbringer, they didn't have that mobility and Summoners were happy. Red Mage suffers mainly from Raise. Also, RDM has Magick Barrier as per BLM and SMN got Manaward/Radiant Aegis. The amount of time I died in DSR where Radiant Aegis would have saved me lol. Summoners still have to manage Ifrit which is really annoying because Ifrit does have casts and melee combos but is just flat weaker than Titan who has no casts. Best example I can give is dealing with Vents I simply go Ifrit after Bahamut because that's where I keep all my uptime. It's a small DPS lost over using Titan as second but nothing is worst than downtime.

For 6.0 SMN. They came with an idea. Thought it was good, didn't really think how it would fit in the current game and that's what we got lol. I still prefer RDM over SMN. Extra summons WILL NOT fix Summoner :[

[SaberMaxwell]

RDM just get owned from lack of mobility on 1 mechanic and severely underperforms (but they also do much better than SMN on the second boss)

I'm honestly interested in knowing how you handle Purgation on RDM without losing casts, because at this point I can dance around Cthonic Vents but Purgation is a mechanic that aggravates me to no end.

EDIT: oh you meant 8s part 2, I'm dumb.

[FireMage]

There is no fight that requires thinking this tier on RDM.

Imagine actually saying this. Also I love living rent free in the heads of trolls, it's both hilarious and pathetic

[Aikaal]

I'm honestly interested in knowing how you handle Purgation on RDM without losing casts, because at this point I can dance around Cthonic Vents but Purgation is a mechanic that aggravates me to no end.

EDIT: oh you meant 8s part 2, I'm dumb.

Sure, I can show you the clip of my clear this week. Wasn't great but it sorta show what I did. I honestly do RDM there because my group hold buffs and I can't suffer from desyncing my Bahamut.

Aikaal#0001 is my discord.

I think we're talking about the 6minutes burst window of P7S? I don't have any issue with that mechanic.

Imagine actually saying this. Also I love living rent free in the heads of trolls, it's both hilarious and pathetic

Imagine defending a bad take. Maybe RDM is super complicated for you. Difficulty is subjective to the player but I figured a 1 trick RDM player like you shouldn't have issues. Wait.. I'll keep it as it is.

[Aurora428]

Imagine actually saying this. Also I love living rent free in the heads of trolls, it's both hilarious and pathetic

I agree that RDM's cast bars have thought surrounding them, but I feel it's pretty clear that the answer here isn't for RDM to outdamage the other ranged as well and call that a "fix" lol.

Both utility AND mobility are being heavily taxed. It feels like it's always a RDM trying to say mobility weighs heavier than utility. I wonder why that is?

All ranged, including RDM should be doing a lot more damage, but you're going to struggle to find someone that feels RDM deserves more damage than a MCH who brings nothing.

Like honestly a lot of your comments boil down to "my class should be good and yours should be bad"

[Aikaal]

I agree that RDM's cast bars have thought surrounding them, but I feel it's pretty clear that the answer here isn't for RDM to outdamage the other ranged as well and call that a "fix" lol.

Both utility AND mobility are being heavily taxed. It feels like it's always a RDM trying to say mobility weighs heavier than utility. I wonder why that is?

All ranged, including RDM should be doing a lot more damage, but you're going to struggle to find someone that feels RDM deserves more damage than a MCH who brings nothing.

Like honestly a lot of your comments boil down to "my class should be good and yours should be bad"

He's sorta a loss cause. I can sympathize as a RDM main as they are not doing the damage they should but at no moment mobility has ever been a RDM issue nor other jobs suddenly need to be worst than my main job. RDM got strong raise, that's why they do lower DPS. Essentially, we're looking at a damage uplift from physical ranged and caster DPS. Not just RDM.