Warrior potency

[Renathras]

Very low damage, too much utility, healing not designed well, and rotation is very simple. The opposite of what WAR core identity should be.

I can see the damage being low as a problem, but...

How is "too much utility" a bad thing? But that aside, does it have the most utility? I thought PLD had more and arguably DRK?

How is it's healing "not designed well"?

And how is a very simple rotation NOT fitting of an "ungba bunga Hulk smash!" core identity? WAR isn't the big brain, highly skilled/trained man-at-arms. That's...well, literally all the other three tanks - PLDs are highly trained and skilled gladiators, DRK's are arguably pretty skillful with a blade, and GNB's are well trained bodyguards. WAR kinda IS the tank where a very simple rotation is exactly what the core identity should be.

Now, if you meant the core identity thing with low damage/high utility/high healing, that I could see more. I would think the berserker would be the higher damage dealing tank who also has lower defense (but higher HP) to be a bit more meat and a bit less shield, powering through things with brute force and determination. But FFXIV's combat system doesn't do "has higher HP, takes more damage" (though it did in ARR), so that's kind of a gameplay concession.

But I'd think simple rotation, self-healing (think "I'm to angry to give up!" determination/second wind in a fight), those things actually fit the WAR core identity to a T.

[ForteNightshade]

Both skills combined give less value than a single use of Nascent Flash, I dont know what you're smoking there.
Using TBN/Oblation selflessly doesn't even give the DRK anything other than more oGCDs to weave.

Nacent Flash lets WAR heal itself AND its target. The most you can get from a team TBN is they break it for you and refund its cost, you know the cost that Nascent Flash doesnt even have.

I'd actually argue that Nascent Flash is one of the most busted, cracked skills in the game right now.

No, they do not. You are vastly overestimating the healing of Bloodwhetting/Nascent in a a raid setting.

TBN by itself is more than double the shield potency of Bloodwhetting on a 10s shorter CD. Paired with Oblation, it's straight up better in terms of raw mitigation by a fairly massive amount. Naturally, the healing component of Bloodwhetting serves to balance them out but the notion TBN + Oblation is somehow inferior is simply wrong. Even when you used on another target, the difference isn't much. Although, in that scenario, Nascent can come out ahead if the Warrior has IR or Inner Chaos to feed into it.

With all that said, healing as a whole has less value than mitigation and shielding. There's a reason shields are considered better than regens. In the case of TBN, not only are you gaining essentially 25,000 HP when used on yourself, it doesn't have any depreciating value when stacked with other mitigation.

A prime example of how powerful Dark Knight's mitigation suite can be is in fights like P2S. Warrior needs a buffed Shake, Vengeance, Rampart and Bloodwhetting to zero out the damage from Spoken/Winged Cataract. Dark Knight, on the other hand, can accomplish the same thing with just Dark Mind, Shadow Wall and TBN.

None of this is to say Bloodwhetting is a bad CD. Far from it. People just need to stop treating it as some insanely broken ability outside of dungeons. In raids, it's simply decent. In fact, Heart of Corundum is straight up better.

[Mithron]

How is "too much utility" a bad thing? But that aside, does it have the most utility? I thought PLD had more and arguably DRK?

How is it's healing "not designed well"?

And how is a very simple rotation NOT fitting of an "ungba bunga Hulk smash!" core identity? WAR isn't the big brain, highly skilled/trained man-at-arms. That's...well, literally all the other three tanks - PLDs are highly trained and skilled gladiators, DRK's are arguably pretty skillful with a blade, and GNB's are well trained bodyguards. WAR kinda IS the tank where a very simple rotation is exactly what the core identity should be.

PLD has the least utility, which is also antithetical to the core identity. WAR should have the least, but highest damage to compensate. That is the job identity. WARs are supposed to be the high damage high risk off tank, berserkers that throw caution to the wind and use reckless abandon. Seeing them have PLD's identity currently (and even the lowest DPS now perhaps) is completely the opposite of what they should be. However I don't think the DPS difference should be greater than 1% between all the tanks, and I don't think they should have such little mitigation that they're shunned, but I want to see WAR at the top of damage, GNB behind them, then DRK and PLD last. I want DRK and PLD to have the best support, mitigation and usable (Clemancy isn't usable) healing. Anything that strays from that is missing the mark on core identity.

Bloodwhetting is extremely powerful in dungeons, and as such they have to make it weaker than most of the other mitigations tanks have in single target boss fights. It's not terrible, it's just okay. But it's really weird being a WAR and thinking "Oh man! Let me heal you!" because that's just not something a WAR should ever think about. WAR should only be thinking about doing damage and have the basic necessary tools to self survive with minimal utility. They should be the "selfish tank," which sadly is PLD currently.

I don't know if you played ARR or HW, but back then WAR was definitely the hardest tank to play but had the most damage. Even pre-Byakko in SB, this was true. It took a lot of effort to make WAR do its real damage, even having to play around a Pacification debuff attached to Berserk that healers had to really pay attention to to maximize their damage. While I don't think they have to go too far into complexity, its current rotation is way, way, way too easy. I don't think any job in the game should be this easy, not even PLD (I'm saying this as PLD/DRK main who specifically has always loved PLD because of how accessible and easy it is).

[Argyle_Darkheart]

PLD has the least utility...

How? You really need to quantify this statement, because PLD has two raid mitigation abilities to the other tanks' one, a spammable targeted heal, and Cover (lol). I won't mention the nuances of Intervention, since each tank has a counterpart ability with its own nuances that make it better or worse than the others in certain situations.

(Clemancy isn't usable)

Yes it is. Only bad players who are only able to fixate on the ideal run make claims like this. Now, I wouldn't say Clemency is even good, but it's far from "not usable."

[Mithron]

How? You really need to quantify this statement, because PLD has two raid mitigation abilities to the other tanks' one, a spammable targeted heal, and Cover (lol). I won't mention the nuances of Intervention, since each tank has a counterpart ability with its own nuances that make it better or worse than the others in certain situations.

Yes it is. Only bad players who are only able to fixate on the ideal run make claims like this. Now, I wouldn't say Clemency is even good, but it's far from "not usable."

PLD has the worst mitigation. PLD offers a short damage reduction on another player with Intervention, and a 250 potency regen over 12 seconds. The other 3 tanks have better buttons. Divine Veil is certainly okay, but Shake It Off is superior in multiple ways.

Only bads think Clemancy is usable when it's a massive DPS loss to PLD's already terrible DPS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If you're in a position to use Clemancy, you've either already wiped or are doing easy content that doesn't really matter. I'd rather a WAR throw Bloodwhetting up instead of a PLD Clemancy me because I know they're sacrificing so much DPS for it. Then you have wings, which again, not particularly usable for DPS loss and I'm not even sure it works on all boss transitions.

Cover is novel, but since they removed Cover HG how often do you actually get to use it in relevant content?

[Argyle_Darkheart]

PLD has the worst mitigation.

Okay, so you actually just don't know what "utility" means in the context of the broader discussion.

Only bads think Clemancy is usable when it's a massive DPS loss to PLD's already terrible DPS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DPS loss isn't an immediate non-starter, especially not during prog, but thanks for proving my point.

If you're in a position to use Clemancy, you've either already wiped...

What does "already wiped" mean? Does that mean that there's no hope of recovery, or that the run is doomed to hit enrage? This distinction is extremely important.

...or are doing easy content that doesn't really matter.

What if I told you that there are valid (emphasis on "valid"—not "optimal") planned usages of Clemency in Ultimate content? Would you even be able to wrap your head around how/why that might be the case?

I'd rather a WAR throw Bloodwhetting up instead of a PLD Clemancy me because I know they're sacrificing so much DPS for it.

What if Nascent Flash is on CD or simply won't mitigate enough? I guess the PLD should just let you die, since that won't cause any DPS loss for the PLD.

Then you have wings, which again, not particularly usable for DPS loss and I'm not even sure it works on all boss transitions.

Again, you don't know how the game works. You can "flash" Passage of Arms for the damage reduction between GCDs.

[Renathras]

I honestly DON'T like complex DPS rotations. Call me bad or casual or whatever insults, but it's why I left PLD and picked up WAR. That and I REALLY hate that PLD's transition from magic to melee phase does a 180 (leading into Royal instead of Goring) at level 90 vs doing literally any synced content where you want to go into Goring if I que for anything on PLD that isn't Expert Roulette. Screwing with muscle memory on that level is just beyond obnoxious. PLD's damage rotation is on par with many of the DPS Jobs now. While one can argue it isn't hard, per se, 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-1-2-3-6-7-7-7-7-8-8-8-8 then 1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-1-2-3-6-7-7-7-7-8-8-8-8 for the rest of the fight (dropping off the initial Goring) as just the GCDs and ignoring oGCD weaves or mitigation oGCD weaves is hardly "simple". I would argue this is more complex than SMN, RDM, MCH, and possibly BRD and DNC (maybe some of the Melees, too, but I don't play Melees)

A tank with a rotation that is as involved as DPS Job rotations I don't consider simple. Tanks have additional duties and things they're responsible for, which is why they're supposed to have somewhat simpler rotations. And this is before getting into PLD's cursed opener and weird Skill Speed cutoffs that MIGHT make you use all Atonements or might leave you dropping 1 per cycle so your buffs continue to align, nor that weird early FoF opener that is highly counterintuitive.

WAR, by contrast, is about right for an "easy" tank. It's not one button spam like healers, has an upkeep buff, several CDs, and some stuff you want to not overcap while also pooling as is practicable for burst. GNB kind of hits the midpoint between the two while being rigid like PLD while DRK hits the midpoint being high APM burst and a bit more flexible.

Honestly, I think, in terms of rotation, all the Tanks right now are in a pretty good place as there's a wide appeal to different skill and combat style of players. Some people legitimately can't do high APM Jobs due to latency or mental/physical issues (e.g. carpel tunnel), and likewise long and involved or rigid rotations vs not. So right now we have a good spread across all four Tanks.

Contrast healers, where every one has basically an identical damage kit, and Tanks look fantastic by contrast.

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And as far as "DPS loss!" goes: The biggest DPS loss is a dead DPS Job. One Clemency is a DPS gain over a dead DPSer.

[Lieri]

I honestly DON'T like complex DPS rotations. Call me bad or casual or whatever insults, but it's why I left PLD and picked up WAR. That and I REALLY hate that PLD's transition from magic to melee phase does a 180 (leading into Royal instead of Goring) at level 90 vs doing literally any synced content where you want to go into Goring if I que for anything on PLD that isn't Expert Roulette. Screwing with muscle memory on that level is just beyond obnoxious. PLD's damage rotation is on par with many of the DPS Jobs now. While one can argue it isn't hard, per se, 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-1-2-3-6-7-7-7-7-8-8-8-8 then 1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-1-2-3-6-7-7-7-7-8-8-8-8 for the rest of the fight (dropping off the initial Goring) as just the GCDs and ignoring oGCD weaves or mitigation oGCD weaves is hardly "simple". I would argue this is more complex than SMN, RDM, MCH, and possibly BRD and DNC (maybe some of the Melees, too, but I don't play Melees)

A tank with a rotation that is as involved as DPS Job rotations I don't consider simple. Tanks have additional duties and things they're responsible for, which is why they're supposed to have somewhat simpler rotations. And this is before getting into PLD's cursed opener and weird Skill Speed cutoffs that MIGHT make you use all Atonements or might leave you dropping 1 per cycle so your buffs continue to align, nor that weird early FoF opener that is highly counterintuitive.

WAR, by contrast, is about right for an "easy" tank. It's not one button spam like healers, has an upkeep buff, several CDs, and some stuff you want to not overcap while also pooling as is practicable for burst. GNB kind of hits the midpoint between the two while being rigid like PLD while DRK hits the midpoint being high APM burst and a bit more flexible.

Honestly, I think, in terms of rotation, all the Tanks right now are in a pretty good place as there's a wide appeal to different skill and combat style of players. Some people legitimately can't do high APM Jobs due to latency or mental/physical issues (e.g. carpel tunnel), and likewise long and involved or rigid rotations vs not. So right now we have a good spread across all four Tanks.

Contrast healers, where every one has basically an identical damage kit, and Tanks look fantastic by contrast.

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And as far as "DPS loss!" goes: The biggest DPS loss is a dead DPS Job. One Clemency is a DPS gain over a dead DPSer.

PLD playstyle is not complicated or harder than WAR in my opinion. Where as a WAR you need to keep attention to Storms eye timer, as a PLD you need to keep attention to Dots timers. Those are the only two things you really need to be careful about. The combos are basic and the weavings are easy.

One thing that is annoying about PLD magic phase is how Requiescat and Holy Spirit animations are so underwhelming. Theres no satisfaction when pressing those where as WAR burst feels impactful.

[Absurdity]

PLD playstyle is not complicated or harder than WAR in my opinion. Where as a WAR you need to keep attention to Storms eye timer, as a PLD you need to keep attention to Dots timers. Those are the only two things you really need to be careful about. The combos are basic and the weavings are easy.

One thing that is annoying about PLD magic phase is how Requiescat and Holy Spirit animations are so underwhelming. Theres no satisfaction when pressing those where as WAR burst feels impactful.

Paladin is by far the most complicated tank, that is however only the case when you try to optimize it because paladin's rotation has vastly more potential to be optimized around specific fights compared to every other tank.


If you only look at paladin's basic rotation it is incredibly simple, but you will also never reach the full potential of the job.

How? You really need to quantify this statement, because PLD has two raid mitigation abilities to the other tanks' one, a spammable targeted heal, and Cover (lol). I won't mention the nuances of Intervention, since each tank has a counterpart ability with its own nuances that make it better or worse than the others in certain situations.

Paladin does certain have some issues with it's mitigation, some have always been there and some are specific to this raid tier.
Sure, you have 2 party mitigation abilities but at the same time they are more restricted than every other tanks'.


-Passage of Arms can really only be used by triggering it for the quick 3 second mitigation, channeling it for the entire duration is too much of a dps loss even if you would be able to catch multiple aoes with it. On top of that you need to actually be able to have the entire party stacked up for the mechanic you want to mitigate which further limits it's flexibility.

-Divine Veil is good but the fact that it still requires a GCD heal to trigger the shield and doesn't apply to the paladin itself isn't great. Being able to trigger it with Holy Spirit is a double edged sword as well. While it allows you to apply the shield yourself during your magic damage phase at the same time it limits the flexibility of Veil because depending on the timing of your rotation and upcoming mechanics you can't make use of it's unique benefit, being able to cast it early but delay triggering the barrier for almost 30 seconds.

-In exchange for more party mitigation paladin lacks personal mitigation which is rather noticeable with how much tank damage there is this tier.

-Holy Shelltron suffers from unique restrictions despite not offering much more mitigation than the other tanks' equivalents. Because block doesn't work on damage over time effects, crits or while you're stunned it is significantly weaker in both DSR and the current raid tier.

That said warrior suffers from similar issues this tier.

-Thrill of Battle is currently quite terrible because the DoT strength of current tank busters is dependant on how much damage the initial hit does, since Thrill just increases your eHP but doesn't offer any additional mitigation it does literally nothing to reduce the bleed damage you're going to take.

-Holmgang suffers from the exact same problem. If you use it to solo shared busters for example you will survive the initial hit but take significant bleed damage without combining it with additional mitigation, somewhat defeating the whole point of using Holmgang in the first place.

[Renathras]

You people...define "simple" very differently than I do.

MCH and WAR have kind of simple rotations going on. More or less a 1-2-3 with some stuff that can be defined as either "use on CD/first come first served" or "pool but don't overcap". I THINK MCH's current optimal play is to use its non-combo GCD buttons whenever they come up, buffed with Reassemble whenever it's up, and make sure not to use Hypercharge if one is within 7-8 sec of coming off CD so it won't drift. WAR's is occasionally replace -3 with -4 to upkeep a buff that's very generous in that you can overwrite it once without it being a DPS loss (e.g. it stacks to 60 seconds so overwriting it ONCE/using it twice in a row isn't inherently harmful like, say, a WHM casting Dia two times in a row being a significant DPS loss is). MCH and WAR have their core rotation and about 4 (I think) GCDs besides that, with about 3-4 oGCDs besides those.

Contrast PLD, which as I noted not counting any oGCDs (of which it has...what, four?) you already have 8 buttons and they must be used in a pretty specific and rigid order.

GNB is rigid (and thus easy to not lose my place in it - for my structured brain/learning style, it's the easiest to play well, I think), and has 7 GCDs and 4 oGCDs. But unlike PLD, there's no real interaction between them as long as you don't wiff your Gnasing Fang combo. PLD actually has interactions between Royal and Atonement (namely that you have to do Royal to unlock 3x Atonements), Goring and...whichever their last sword thing is that also puts up its DoT, two separate buffs for physical and magical phases, respectively, and that's before getting into all the utility spells. Even its short duration CD is more complex with GNB having one they can cast on themselves or a party member, PLD has two separate ones - like WAR - but also has a third one in the form of Cover. And unlike WAR and GNB which are simple CDs, PLD's is tied to a gauge. For...reasons...?

Contrast PLD with RDM 1-4-1-5 back and forth, with 2-4/5 3-4/5 mixed in sometimes to build Mana, then 6-7-8-4/5-1-1 as its burst phase. It has an oGCD for buffing damage (itself and party), another it can use in burst for a second combo, and it has two oGCD damage attacks (one AOE and one single target, but you use both since, unlike WAR, they don't share a CD), and Corps-a-corps and Engagement/Disengagement. In theory it has Reprisal as a movement tool, but this is GENERALLY avoided. So the typical RDM rotation might be something like 1-4-1-5-2-4-1-5-3-5-6-7-8-4/5-1-1-1. That's honestly no harder than PLD.

EDIT (for space):

SMN is even easier.

PLD has a rotation that is complicated for a tank - probably the most complicated for tanks if you include the cursed opener and the weird dropping an Atonement every cycle or two at different speed breakpoints to align everything - and it's easily on par with several of the damage dealers in terms of button presses, APM, and rotational complexity.

BUT, I will grant that all of this is opinion - as I said myself, I find WAR approachable, but I find GNB is easier for me to keep up the optimal rotation since the rigidity of it makes it easy to not lose my place unlike WAR. I think what specifically makes WAR so friendly to me is that overbuffing with Storm's Eye isn't an issue (at least as long as you aren't wasting raid buff window GCDs on it), whereas on PLD, if you use Goring combo twice in a row, that's a pretty major DPS loss as your Royal/Atonement is ALSO now jacked and you may have overwritten a Goring DoT with a weaker DoT, and at the last have a DPS loss from that, even before getting to having drifted your Royal combo off-kilter. If you use Storm's Eye a second time with your buff still at 25 seconds or so......well, nothing bad happened. \o/

So to each their own, I suppose...

But yeah: PLD's rotation is on par with a DPSer's rotation, which already makes it at last medium challenge/difficulty, especially when you consider the weird optimization stuff PLD's rotation has going with it AND that you're still a tank, meaning you're doing all that while doing other tanky stuff like mitigations and positioning bosses and tank swaps, oh and since you're a PLD, you also have their slate of party support stuff in there to throw out, too.

I'll...stick with non-PLD tanks, thanks. I'm glad some people love PLD and it's there for them. I'm...probably not one of those people, so I'll stick with what my smooth brain can handle, lol