Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Ayche]

All a matter of perspective. If I were one of the scions, I would have given them much less credibility and sympathy than they actually have in game, they would be a threat to be exterminated. But if I were with the ascians, I would have probably done all they have in this situation, too. Being players who observe the story from the sides allows us to discuss the matter without personal biases that would be only logical we’re something like that actually occur.

No no, perspectives are not equal. I don't know if someone name dropped moral relativism in this thread or some other lore thread, but lemme say one thing about that. Moral relativism is not moral nihilism. Powerful people abusing the weak is universally morally abhorrent, full stop. I don't care how much they miss their loved ones.

[Thenightvortex]

No no, perspectives are not equal. I don't know if someone name dropped moral relativism in this thread or some other lore thread, but lemme say one thing about that. Moral relativism is not moral nihilism. Powerful people abusing the weak is universally morally abhorrent, full stop. I don't care how much they miss their loved ones.

And I’m not denying that the third sacrifice is evil. Still, I don’t think it warrants the sundering, especially when the sacrifice itself is never even cited as the reasoning. Perhaps at that point there was no other way to make the convocation change their mind, but again, it was in part due to Venat’s dishonesty that it has gone that far.

[Curisu]

The weakest point about EW is the whole Hermes Mateon dynamis thing.
It shows that back in ARR/HW they didn't exactly knew how to end the Story.
If they knew, we would have gotten more hints about Amon. Also Fandaniel would have appeared earlier.

The whole venat hydealin part was good executed.

[Veloran]

And I’m not denying that the third sacrifice is evil.

Before you do that, you might want to consider that she's conflating the Ascian's rejoinings with the third sacrifice. Which aren't equivalent.

[Lauront]

All and all, the Third Sacrifice makes Sundering a karmic retribution.

I'm going to address this even though you're confusing this with the Rejoinings: Said retribution is enforced by a person. It is a specific act done for a specific reason, to a people who suffered one of the most extreme stress tests imaginable, that is not specific to the intrinsic morality of the sacrifices but rather to the result she feared would come about from their completion; moreover, it is applied indiscriminately to the entire star - otherwise we could make the argument that the Rejoinings (oh and you know, why not - Final Days 2.0; after all, Amon was just as happy to unleash it on the sundered) are karmic retribution for the "sins" of the sundered. Very poetic. But really, this isn't the result - as far as we know - of some magic woo woo in the universe, or some deity, which one might in similar circumstances refer to as 'sadistic'. It is the concrete actions of individuals based on their motivations, beliefs and goals. References to 'karma' do little more than obscure this in a false shroud of mysticism.

There is one very important key difference. None of the people Venat supposedly killed* actually truly died, since rebirth is a known fact in FFXIV.

Then nothing is truly murder in this setting. After all, everything that dies will be reborn eventually.

Similarly, if I sunder the sundered as badly as Venat did the ancients, that's just creating more life. They still exist - just in another form. Hopefully this will stop Alphinaud from protesting if he's blessed with a dose of sundering?

The Ascians though? They were planning to entrap everyone's soul in Zodiark, which would have prevented their rebirth. Which is probably worse than death. And contrary to his buddies previously entrapped there these new souls wouldn't get a say in the matter.

Speculative. Maybe, maybe not. The problem is with this logic you're applying here, you're setting up a false dichotomy of the Sundering vs the Rejoinings. This doesn't work. There is a huge asymmetry of information held by one party in contrast to the other parties. One can look at the Rejoinings from the perspective of why the Ascians felt the need to enact them (and to what extent they were subjectively justified in that regard), but really, when comparing their crimes to Venat's crimes, her plan doesn't entail just the Sundering. Also, the Rejoinings were conducted as a perceived corrective measure but in ignorance of the true situation facing the ancients; really, the debate now is more to do with why she did not come clean with her people to give them a fighting chance and how those reasons stack up. Back to the point about the full scope of her plan: she is forearmed with at the least an overarching outline of how events will transpire, and she is targeting a specific outcome whereby mankind is where she deems them to be "prepared" to handle Meteion - really, a select group as pointed out here by Vyrerus:

Because it's not mankind nor the concept of man that accepts, and is given the actual test; then passes it. It is one, idealized and idolized individual. An anointed chosen one birthed by the murder of original man. Prepared and groomed for the role, and given every tool past, present, and future to ensure success. If all of that is what's required to be worthy of life, then no basic concept for the worthiness of life exists.

Brings a whole new meaning to, "Prove your worth."

Back to the point of its scope:

I'm just going to say it: The Ascians are, in essence, Venat's controlled opposition. She knew what they would do, and paved the way for their existence, while they were unknowingly acting as agents of her plans. Even if Emet-Selch hadn't come out and said this in Ultima Thule, as many people have been pointing out in this thread their proclivities towards spreading chaos and resetting civilization through great destruction every few thousand years is exactly what Venat's ideals call for.

I'm inclined to agree with this interpretation.

Which would be expected, given that they can't even get their pants on without relying on creation magic.

Oh, I see.

No more shall man order food using Uber Eats or popping into the supermarket. Henceforth, he shall hunt.

Proceeds to dump the theoretical human, stark-naked, in the middle of the jungle.

Oops... mind those tiger- well, I hope that didn't hurt too much! Forge ahead - oh no, there goes the rest of him too.

Man those humans, so pathetic. Can't even get food for themselves without turning into food themselves.


Sounds kind of ridiculous and bad faith to apply this kind of judgement in this way, doesn't it?

By the way, the stripping away of the immortality/drastic lifespan reduction is why this is straightforwardly murder. I'm going to quote another post where Veloran put it well:

Why should we not think that? If someone were to reduce my natural lifespan to a tiny fraction of what it would be I'd consider that murder. Not to mention the Unsundered world was generally peaceful and without death by war or disease either. This level of death and suffering was literally Venat's intention in doing the Sundering. And then there's the fact that Venat never told the Ascians about the threat of Meteion, so they were trying to rejoin the worlds while ignorant of the threat that was potentially posed to them in the process.

As to the Sundering - Yes it clearly killed everyone. This is very obvious by the non-existence of the Ancients as a race today and the existence of newly created races housing their souls. Even on a basic level taking beings that had lived for millennia and cutting their lifespans down to 100 years would have instantly killed all of them. This isn't even getting into the self-death aspect that is stripping everyone of their memories and interpersonal connections. Even if we were to assume that they somehow survived the initial shock of the sundering, they would have awoken as entirely new people in a hostile world with no clue who they were or where they had come from, and soon thereafter proceeded to die off for various reasons.

Whereas your position is that if I poison people such that they and their progeny have their lifespans cut, this isn't murder. That's untenable. This is in addition to her doing all in her power to ensure ancient civilisation is erased and condemning mankind to a rapid fire cycle of rebirth.

[Fiel_Tana]

No no, perspectives are not equal. I don't know if someone name dropped moral relativism in this thread or some other lore thread, but lemme say one thing about that. Moral relativism is not moral nihilism. Powerful people abusing the weak is universally morally abhorrent, full stop. I don't care how much they miss their loved ones.

Powerful people (people, person and/or primal) abusing the weak is universally morally abhorrent, full stop. I don't care how much they miss their loved ones. think they know better than their "loved ones".

The sundering is just as, if not more abhorrent since Venat KNEW the future she imposed on all living beings... whilst also keeping to herself ALL info that could have prevented the end days and / or enabled them to recover and fight.

[Necrotica]

Maybe Venat is supposed to he a kind of warning about fatalism as well. She was so obsessed with making sure the future played out the same even though she did not even know if that method would succeed.

Someone comes back from the future. Says the universe is about to be destroyed and this is what led up to it.

Why would you commit to making that repeat itself? Try something else. If someone else comes from the future saying omg the universe is about to end again go with another plan. Eventually your future self should send someone back to say 'yes that one worked stick with that one'.

Actually if 6.3 has the WoL go back to tell Venat it all worked out that would solve a lot of issues.

[Lyth]

Alexander already calculated out the outcome of every possible alteration to the timeline, in past, present, and future. Alexander probably could have even altered the events on Elpis if it wanted to. It decided that we were on the optimal timeline and deliberately removed itself from the equation in order to prevent others from meddling with it. Reflect on that if you will.

[Veloran]

Alexander already calculated out the outcome of every possible alteration to the timeline, in past, present, and future. Alexander probably could have even altered the events on Elpis if it wanted to. It decided that we were on the optimal timeline and deliberately removed itself from the equation in order to prevent others from meddling with it. Reflect on that if you will.

I guess AltAlex's computations ended up just as laughable as AltVenat's lived experiences.

[Lyth]

A mathematical proof demonstrating why all your AU fanfics wouldn't work out.

Q.E.D.