Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Tehmon]

That's ultimately the problem here. On its own, the philosophy of "we can never get to perfection but we should keep striving for the best outcome we can" is fine, and it's what the story has been running on up to this point.

The problem here is when they also try to have this story element of "look at these people who kept striving until they did reach what they believe to be perfection! It invariably turned out to be their undoing and their whole society collapsed!"

So where is the dividing line? Where should we keep trying, and where should we stop because our idea of creating a good world for people might actually be just as flawed and lead to similar disaster?

It's a proposal that undermines the positive affirmation that the other half of the story is trying to tell. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and the narrative sabotages itself.

I enjoyed Endwalker for the immediate things it did with the Scions and main cast, but the philosophical aspects are a complete mess at a base concept level before you even start to untangle the morality of characters like Venat.

I do not see any problem here, on the contrary I find it quite fascinating. Ultimately the sundered mankind will never reach perfection, our mortality and diversity in thought, ideology and culture will not allow it. That is why the idea that our strives for peace and comfort are in vain as we will ultimately reach a point of perfection, where we will meet our ultimate demise, doesn't sound truthful or plausible. But we are talking about mankind in the Source, and while this might be true to our existence, it might not be so for other civilizations across the vast universe who have, in their culture, reached a point of perfection from their perspective. I'm not sure that Venat ever meant to imply that her philosophy would ring true to all of existence.

Will we ever truly reach the dividing line? I doubt it, because the vast amount of different perspectives will disagree on where that line between good life and perfection that leads to collapse exists. Even the concept of '' life that is as good as it can be without the threat of what an utopia and perfection would cause to our civilization '' would vary from person to person, or at least from culture to culture.

[KariTheFox]

I disagree with the interpretation of the people of the plenty being "horrified" or "suffering" in any way. The emotional tones you say you see, I don't really read it like that. To me, it's more akin to simply being bored with life and happy to experience an alternative, not a horrible, despair-inducing existensial crisis.

It only looks like "despair" to an outsider because surely you would only embrace death because you are suffering in life, but I think it makes The Plenty more interesting and more alien if they willingly embraced thier deaths from a place of contentment and bliss, rather than outright despair.

And by "Meteion is using the races in Ultima Thule as arguments", I mean that she is presenting them in a certain order and certain perspective in order to make a point - which is something along the lines of "look at all these societies who died in suffering and despair after trying thier best, and then look at the Plenty, who died blissfully after acheiving perfection, wouldn't it be easier and better to just skip to the part where we all die?"

It's entirely possible that there were members of The Plenty's society that disagreed, or didn't want to die. But that doesn't really matter for the purposes that they are being used by Meteion for, which is to try to convince the WoL and the Scions that death is a wonderful and pleasant alternative to the suffering inherent in life.

[Veloran]

It's possible that Venat's primitivist ideals are correct, and that every society will inevitably be destroyed through various means in pursuit of progress. My issue with this is that it's an idea presented through a bunch of distant alien races or ancient peoples long dead, it's not a notion that actually seems to bear any serious consideration for the peoples of Eorzea. We happily go along solving everyone's problems, uniting the continent into a nu-Global Community, saving all of our friends from death instead of having to suffer their true loss, and all around being a perfect hero surrounded by perfect friends who want to mitigate suffering and progress into a brighter future in every way they possibly can.

In that sense, the story is two-faced. It presents the idea, but cheats by not having it apply to everyone, instead suggesting that somehow we're so special and unique that we've broken past those issues and found a way that isn't a "Dead End".

You are making unjustified logical leaps. We know her whole plan rested on us succeeding. We know that from the moment the Sundering occurred she was waiting for humanity to come and defeat her. None of that makes sense if we believe, as you do, that she never expected us to win. The Sundering would be pointless, her faith in us pointless, all of the sacrifices pointless.

And maybe that's all true. Humanity fulfilling her hopes and surpassing her is something she allowed for the possibility of, but her words and her extensive plans with the moon show that it wasn't the outcome she actually expected to happen. Maybe she hoped for it, maybe her plans accounted for it, but when it happened she couldn't really believe it. Again, exactly like Emet-Selch at the end of Shadowbringers.

And the Ascians aren't also?!

I'm just going to say it: The Ascians are, in essence, Venat's controlled opposition. She knew what they would do, and paved the way for their existence, while they were unknowingly acting as agents of her plans. Even if Emet-Selch hadn't come out and said this in Ultima Thule, as many people have been pointing out in this thread their proclivities towards spreading chaos and resetting civilization through great destruction every few thousand years is exactly what Venat's ideals call for.

I know your next response is going to be "But the Warriors of Light, she was trying to stop the Calamities!", and you know my response after that will be "We don't actually have evidence the WoLs ever stopped any Calamities."

Yoshida himself said that Venat working very hard behind the scenes to ensure that the timeline proceeded in accordance to how it should is a valid interpretation of events. That is my interpretation of how it all went down, that Venat intended for all of this to happen and worked to make it so. Are you going to disagree and insist that this is an invalid idea?

Emet killed himself rather than live longer by Venats magic.

Emet was dead, and it was WoL that brought him there.

To say she didn't extend the same level of empathy as Emet, whose care for us was contingent on a subjective and ultimately meaningless test, is ridiculous.

Venat's care for her own people was itself contingent on a subjective and ultimately meaningless test. I also disagree that Emet's empathy for mortals was contingent on passing the test, but I doubt you'll ever accede to that.

Yep, I would never kill an innocent in exchange for the life of someone I care about.

But you would kill an innocent person in exchange for the theoretical life of someone in the future.

So treat her as Emet then. I don't remember this level of backlash to him do you?

I've explained several times the nuances that show their differences. But yes, I in fact do remember quite a lot of "backlash" in ShB, threads constantly reverted into arguments about Emet and the Ascians for years. The only difference is that at that time, the puzzle wasn't complete, so the avenues for how complex and contentious the conversation could get were more limited.

[CrownySuccubus]

I disagree with the interpretation of the people of the plenty being "horrified" or "suffering" in any way. The emotional tones you say you see, I don't really read it like that. To me, it's more akin to simply being bored with life and happy to experience an alternative, not a horrible, despair-inducing existensial crisis.

It only looks like "despair" to an outsider because surely you would only embrace death because you are suffering in life, but I think it makes The Plenty more interesting and more alien if they willingly embraced thier deaths from a place of contentment and bliss, rather than outright despair.

I don't see how you can look at people shouting "At last, mercy for us all!" or "O how I have waited for this moment!" "O Ra-la, bringer of sweet oblivion...hear our prayers!" and claim that you don't see emotional tones in any sincerity, but do you I guess. But as far as I'm concerned, the hair between "suffering" and "wanting death so badly that you beg for it and cheer with relief when it comes" is so thin that I don't see it worth debating. So I'll continue to call it as such.

And by "Meteion is using the races in Ultima Thule as arguments", I mean that she is presenting them in a certain order and certain perspective in order to make a point - which is something along the lines of "look at all these societies who died in suffering and despair after trying thier best, and then look at the Plenty, who died blissfully after acheiving perfection, wouldn't it be easier and better to just skip to the part where we all die?"

It's entirely possible that there were members of The Plenty's society that disagreed, or didn't want to die. But that doesn't really matter for the purposes that they are being used by Meteion for, which is to try to convince the WoL and the Scions that death is a wonderful and pleasant alternative to the suffering inherent in life.

It's also possible that Meteion was riding on a unicycle and juggling moogles every time she was offscreen, but if the story doesn't show us something, then it's speculation. To be frank, I don't see why Meteion would bother to do that. Meteion didn't particularly care about the first two areas of the Dead Ends, where there were plenty of people who wanted very much NOT to die but wound up dying anyway due to plague or weapons of mass destruction. If there were people who opposed the rest of the Plenty's desires, only to fail and die anyway, or eventually die out due for other reasons, that would only STRENGTHEN her argument that oblivion is inevitable no matter what you want or do.

Meteion: "And when one asked: What was the point? There were none left to answer."

[Iscah]

Remember that Meteion didn't set out as a bringer of despair. She simply asked questions and read people's feelings, and the answers she received turned her into that.

[SannaR]

For me the notes in the section of the Plenty were written mostly after Meteion arrived. Or right around the time she made contact. That until she made contact they for whatever reason didn't seem to notice they were living in apathy. Sure, there is that one that sort of remembers having other emotions but they don't have the strength or want to try and remember what that is. Until she arrives and asks them the question and they become confused by it. Instead of facing what problems that brought up they call forth their God Ra-La.

[Brinne]

Will we ever truly reach the dividing line? I doubt it, because the vast amount of different perspectives will disagree on where that line between good life and perfection that leads to collapse exists. Even the concept of '' life that is as good as it can be without the threat of what an utopia and perfection would cause to our civilization '' would vary from person to person, or at least from culture to culture.

If the point is avoiding a "Dead End" altogether, or for as long as possible, and if we - hypothetically - accept the premise of the "perfection Dead End" as one of many, then I have to point out that we also got illustrated multiple "dead ends" that did not collapse because of perfection. As a matter of fact, they collapsed because a) of factors that did not exist in Etheirys until Venat Sundered it (disease and war) and b) because of an unbridgeable gap amongst mortals in "a vast amount of different perspectives." So singling out the Ancients in this regard, even putting aside the ways that they are not a 1:1 correlation with the Plenty, honestly starts feeling a little targeted and mean-spirited.

I do not see any problem here, on the contrary I find it quite fascinating. Ultimately the sundered mankind will never reach perfection, our mortality and diversity in thought, ideology and culture will not allow it.

There are two problems with this. Handily, one is Watsonian, and one is Doylist.

On a Watsonian level, if our approach if "mortality is a safeguard against a Dead End [and therefore necessarily existing as a mortal is superior to existing as an immortal]" then the story, in-universe, is deeply inconsistent, because we had an entire expansion about the mortal humanity reconciling with an immortal race - the Dragons - with an urge to understand one anothers' perspectives without trying to fundamentally force an alteration on one or the other, and instead seeking a peaceful co-existence based on mutual acceptance. There is absolutely no hint that the dragons are morally expected to give up on their immortality or need to concede that their mode of existence is an inferior one to humans'. Their Dead End also had absolutely nothing to do with their immortality or their peaceful, unified way of life. It was entirely a random, unexpected attack from outsiders that had absolutely nothing to do with anything they did, their own choices, or how they lived.

On a Doylist level, this is a suggestion that there are fundamentally wrong ways, inferior ways, to be born and then live according to innate, immutable characteristics one is, again, born with. The Ancients did not engineer themselves to be ageless or wield the powers they did. They were born with them. Do you see how the suggestion of "there are ways of physically existing in this world that are just innately inferior and wrong, and if you are born that way, that justifies a mindset of 'it's okay to exterminate them because they were doomed anyway' or 'it's okay to exterminate them in favor of a biologically 'more correct' form of life' immediately becomes deeply horrifying, particularly speaking from the perspective of someone disabled and/or a member of a marginalized group?

[Rulakir]

I always come back to the fact that if the sundering were indeed 'necessary' then the story did a poor job of conveying that. Rather than rehash all the reasons why, I'll just skip to I was reminded of Althena in Lunar: Eternal Blue. The evil force in that story had permeated every corner of the world and was turning mankind into monsters. The remaining vestiges of humanity were suffering and begged Althena for salvation. It's made abundantly clear due to the extent and severity of the corruption she had no choice but to raze the planet to ensure it was excised. Survivors were relocated to the moon until such a time as the world could restore itself to being inhabitable.

Perhaps if they'd kept the 'Sound' within the planet and Hydaelyn sundering it to keep it at bay it could have worked. It could have even been the reason why people were divided over the fate of the star, if Venat had actually brought up the sundering as a course of action until they could figure out a permanent solution.

Ultimately the sundered mankind will never reach perfection, our mortality and diversity in thought, ideology and culture will not allow it.

Even the notes within The Plenty imply they were once similar to the sundered. Not to mention Allag was arguably headed that route until the calamity. Just because people are diverse now doesn't mean they will be in perpetuity.

Plus, the denizens of The Plenty were a hivemind. There wasn't anything to indicate the Ancients were anywhere close to that considering their divide over the fate of the star following the Final Days.

[EaraGrace]

That's ultimately the problem here. On its own, the philosophy of "we can never get to perfection but we should keep striving for the best outcome we can" is fine, and it's what the story has been running on up to this point.

The problem here is when they also try to have this story element of "look at these people who kept striving until they did reach what they believe to be perfection! It invariably turned out to be their undoing and their whole society collapsed!"

Because that was the only goal. Achieving that perfection was what it was all for, and learning it could either not be obtained (Ea) or isn’t conducive to living (the Plenty) leads to destruction.

So where is the dividing line? Where should we keep trying, and where should we stop because our idea of creating a good world for people might actually be just as flawed and lead to similar disaster?

There isn’t one! The point isn’t to prevent people from making a good world, but preparing those who built it and live in it to see it end, and still retain the will to live. That’s the point of Venats trial!

As fragmented, imperfect beings, yours is a neverending quest.
A quest to find your purpose, knowing your end is assured.
To find the strength to continue, when all strength has left you.
To find joy, even as darkness descends.
And amidst deepest despair life everlasting.

The Sundered live their lives knowing the end will come, knowing that everything they built will end and they are forced to reckon with that. As we do in our lives too. It’s the dyed sand mandalas, destined to be destroyed and lost!

Answers is about the same exact thing. The cyclical nature of existence!

But again, the story creates a very muddy area around the line between "be content with what you have" and "make the world better even if it can't be perfect". I understand that you, and several others, want to give the text the benefit of the doubt and assume that it aspires more to the latter than the former, but the problem is that the way the narrative is muddied gives the former more credibility than it deserves as well.

I’m not giving it the benefit of the doubt I’m expressing what I believe is a consistent message that Endwalker wished to express and did! The problem was never that the Ancients desired to make a better world, but that they didn’t wish to live in anything else but. She believed they couldn’t change, and that would kill them and all others.

That's not the point. The point is that the story wants to make the argument that some achievements are impossible, while also presenting us with societies that have achieved actually impossible achievements to point at and say, "See, they did this impossible feat and now they're miserable for it". Again, you can't have it both ways.

And I’m arguing your splitting hairs over something the narrative states multiple times isn’t the point. Hydaelyns speech lays out clearly the problem with the dead ends.

That's Meaning 1, then. You can't have infinite perfection AND be limited.

Please show me where someone is stated to have achieved infinite perfection. I genuinely don’t know where this was stated.

And maybe that's all true. Humanity fulfilling her hopes and surpassing her is something she allowed for the possibility of, but her words and her extensive plans with the moon show that it wasn't the outcome she actually expected to happen.

You’ve yet to give an explanation for Sundering the world if she didn’t believe they could do it and was counting on it.

Yoshida himself said that Venat working very hard behind the scenes to ensure that the timeline proceeded in accordance to how it should is a valid interpretation of events. That is my interpretation of how it all went down, that Venat intended for all of this to happen and worked to make it so. Are you going to disagree and insist that this is an invalid idea?

I honestly do not care if you believe that theory, but understand that I don’t share it and any conclusion based on it will require justification for me to believe it. Not that you should care but I want to make that clear.

Venat's care for her own people was itself contingent on a subjective and ultimately meaningless test. I also disagree that Emet's empathy for mortals was contingent on passing the test, but I doubt you'll ever accede to that.

I won’t because I thanks that’s wrong and believe I can support that. You disagree.

But you would kill an innocent person in exchange for the theoretical life of someone in the future.

I would kill an innocent in order to allow the potential for life to go on. Sacrificing one life for another I would not.

[CrownySuccubus]

Because that was the only goal. Achieving that perfection was what it was all for, and learning it could either not be obtained (Ea) or isn’t conducive to living (the Plenty) leads to destruction.

There isn’t one! The point isn’t to prevent people from making a good world, but preparing those who built it and live in it to see it end, and still retain the will to live. That’s the point of Venats trial!

The problem with this argument is that Venat introduced MORE suffering. She literally brought mortality, weakness, disease, war, famine and other things to a society that had eliminated those things long ago. When told that a specific set of events would lead to the destruction of said world, she withheld information in tacit agreement with the "test" that said destruction would pose. Venat effectively undid and reset a plethora of progress that objectively made a "good world".

This would basically be the same as destroying the cure for polio, tuberculosis and smallpox because you think kids spend too much time on TikTok.

I’m not giving it the benefit of the doubt I’m expressing what I believe is a consistent message that Endwalker wished to express and did! The problem was never that the Ancients desired to make a better world, but that they didn’t wish to live in anything else but. She believe they couldn’t change, and that would kill them.

Again, this argument doesn't work because Venat had the information to warn people about what was coming and did not.

And I’m arguing your splitting hairs over something the narrative states multiple times isn’t the point. Hydaelyns speech lays out clearly the problem with the dead ends.

You claim it's "splitting hairs", but it's the entire fallacy of the plot. You cannot build a narrative based on "this is impossible to achieve, therefore don't live your life pursuing it" and then flat out point to societies that achieved other impossible things as proof of your argument.

It would be like having a mystery story where the main character smugly derides other characters for believing that a silly superstition is behind the mystery, but later revealing that he solved the mystery by asking a ghost. You can't claim that something being impossible is the reason you shouldn't try to do it, and then introduce entire groups that did OTHER impossible things.

Show me in the text where someone is stated to have achieved infinite perfection.

Eara, I've explained this thoroughly within several posts. I've carefully walked you down my logic on this. I refuse to do so again.

You will either reread what I've said and engage with my point in good faith, or this point of discussion is done. I'm not playing these sorts of games to try to go for "gotchas".