MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[TaleraRistain]

I still run into healers sometimes -- in Endwalker content, even! -- who were not aware that a debuff you can cleanse with Esuna will have a white bar at the top of the debuff icon

I think a big part of that is because it didn't used to have a bar to indicate it could be cleansed and when they added it, they didn't make sure the game told you. I can't remember if the Hall was out by then or not. You were just supposed to remember if you could cleanse or not or try it and see if it worked. It was just as annoying as I'm sure you're imagining. Especially when it wasn't consistent.

[Packetdancer]

Read the healer threads on here and on the discussion Reddit. There’s a lot of similar complaints about healers coming from those who main the role or who have played it for years, not just those who play it casually or whenever they want to mix things up. When you have enough of the same complaints, it is safe to make a statement that healer satisfaction is plummeting.

Not to say that healer gameplay isn't in a place where it could stand some improvement, but I feel like I ought to chime in here to point out that all of my own past experience has led me to believe firmly that "complaint threads" are the worst possible metric to go by. People who are unhappy with something will run to the internet to vent their spleen over said thing at length (and high volume); people who are happy tend to be a great deal quieter, whether because they're off playing the thing they're happy with... or just because they feel little need to go stick their hand in the meat-grinder that internet discourse can sometimes descend into.

Any time I've worked on a game or, really, any product that had a public forum, I could look at the discussions of people complaining... and then look at other metrics, and see that the complaints were often all from a relatively tiny (but very loud) percentage of people.

And I say this having, on occasion, been one of that tiny (but very loud) population myself.

This isn't to say complaint threads should be ignored, of course. It just means that "there are complaint threads" does not necessarily prove "the majority of healers are unhappy", no matter how loud -- or repetitive -- the complaints might be. (It doesn't mean the majority of the healers aren't unhappy either... just that complaint threads are a terrible metric to judge that by one way or the other.)

I think a big part of that is because it didn't used to have a bar to indicate it could be cleansed and when they added it, they didn't make sure the game told you. I can't remember if the Hall was out by then or not. You were just supposed to remember if you could cleanse or not or try it and see if it worked. It was just as annoying as I'm sure you're imagining. Especially when it wasn't consistent.

I do tend to recall that myself, yes. And it's worth noting that the flashing castbar to show something could be interrupted is an addition they made in... I think Shadowbringers? And, like the Esuna bar, it was a much-needed one... albeit one that was only ever detailed/noted in, like, the 5.0 patch notes on the website and literally nowhere else ever.

Both of those -- and various other things -- could stand to be communicated in game somehow.

[Supersnow845]

Not to say that healer gameplay isn't in a place where it could stand some improvement, but I feel like I ought to chime in here to point out that all of my own past experience has led me to believe firmly that "complaint threads" are the worst possible metric to go by. People who are unhappy with something will run to the internet to vent their spleen over said thing at length (and high volume); people who are happy tend to be a great deal quieter, whether because they're off playing the thing they're happy with... or just because they feel little need to go stick their hand in the meat-grinder that internet discourse can sometimes descend into.

Any time I've worked on a game or, really, any product that had a public forum, I could look at the discussions of people complaining... and then look at other metrics, and see that the complaints were often all from a relatively tiny (but very loud) percentage of people.

And I say this having, on occasion, been one of that tiny (but very loud) population myself.

This isn't to say complaint threads should be ignored, of course. It just means that "there are complaint threads" does not necessarily prove "the majority of healers are unhappy", no matter how loud -- or repetitive -- the complaints might be. (It doesn't mean the majority of the healers aren't unhappy either... just that complaint threads are a terrible metric to judge that by one way or the other.)

Can we draw your attention to healer player numbers and healer job satisfaction metrics instead

And even if we leave those out sure people who are unsatisfied are more likely to complain but there are more people complaining that means More people are unsatisfied

[HyoMinPark]

snip

Okay, and? When you see the same complaints over and over again, it is generally safe to say that it is a majority opinion. Keep in mind that, on these forums specifically, a lot of players have been banned from even posting, so how are they to post feedback here? When people complain in droves and there are multiple posts and threads and comments on various social media platforms, I do not consider this to be some “vocal minority”. I see healer complaints in my server’s Novice Network about how gameplay is boring and how all of them play the same. There there are others still who have simply given up.

I really dislike the “vocal minority” argument that people employ to try and discredit valid complaints.

[Striker44]

Can we draw your attention to healer player numbers and healer job satisfaction metrics instead

And even if we leave those out sure people who are unsatisfied are more likely to complain but there are more people complaining that means More people are unsatisfied

Out of curiosity, do you have a link to those metrics?

The second part needs to also factor in total population, though. When the overall population is higher, there will likely be a higher pure # of people taking any position simply because there is a higher pure # of people, period. It doesn't mean that group actually represents a larger portion of the population. EW is the most popular expansion yet for FFXIV, and even its late-patch "troughs" are seeing a significantly larger active playerbase than at similar points in prior expansions. More people means there will be more people "unsatisfied," but it also means there will be more people satisfied, too.

[Striker44]

Okay, and? When you see the same complaints over and over again, it is generally safe to say that it is a majority opinion. Keep in mind that, on these forums specifically, a lot of players have been banned from even posting, so how are they to post feedback here? When people complain in droves and there are multiple posts and threads and comments on various social media platforms, I do not consider this to be some “vocal minority”. I see healer complaints in my server’s Novice Network about how gameplay is boring and how all of them play the same. There there are others still who have simply given up.

I really dislike the “vocal minority” argument that people employ to try and discredit valid complaints.

No, it really isn't. Even in the late-patch "trough," this game still has literally hundreds of thousands of active players. Look at the "complaint" threads on the forums, and you'll see maybe a few dozen people (often showing up repeatedly in the various threads). There is absolutely no way to extrapolate that and somehow claim it must be a majority opinion in anything resembling a legitimate statistical manner. I really dislike seeing people act as if a couple dozen people must somehow be the majority to try and give credit to something that doesn't merit it.

[HyoMinPark]

No, it really isn't. Even in the late-patch "trough," this game still has literally hundreds of thousands of active players. Look at the "complaint" threads on the forums, and you'll see maybe a few dozen people (often showing up repeatedly in the various threads). There is absolutely no way to extrapolate that and somehow claim it must be a majority opinion in anything resembling a legitimate statistical manner. I really dislike seeing people act as if a couple dozen people must somehow be the majority to try and give credit to something that doesn't merit it.

The criticisms aren’t just on this forum. You’re ignoring the complaints that appear on other social media as well. People have made YT videos mocking the state of the healers. Check the comments on those. Check the comments on the subreddits (there is more than one dedicated to XIV). Comments made in-game. People in my NN were complaining about how boring the healers were just a couple weeks ago, and there were scattered mentions of them yesterday while I was queuing in for some Orbonne fun. They’re more than just on here. And there are more people adding to them every day. Nice try at the “vocal minority” argument again, though.

[ForteNightshade]

No, it really isn't. Even in the late-patch "trough," this game still has literally hundreds of thousands of active players. Look at the "complaint" threads on the forums, and you'll see maybe a few dozen people (often showing up repeatedly in the various threads). There is absolutely no way to extrapolate that and somehow claim it must be a majority opinion in anything resembling a legitimate statistical manner. I really dislike seeing people act as if a couple dozen people must somehow be the majority to try and give credit to something that doesn't merit it.

Generally speaking, when complaints are near unanimous across several social media outlets, they often represent the average. In FFXIV, specifically, we've seen this showcased with:

• Diadem
• Lords of Vermillion
• Blue Mage
• White Mage Lilies (Stormblood)
• Piercing/Slashing debuffs
• Pagos

Just to list a few examples. Furthermore, job balance discussions and criticisms are also proven correct. Back in Stormblood, Yoshida insisted Red Mage's DPS output was fine despite several knowledgeable Caster mains claiming otherwise. His reasoning was Verraise being too strong. Months later, when Red Mage's numbers significantly declined, guess what happened, the changes those same Caster mains insisted on came through.

This has happened repeatedly throughout the expansions. Machinist has languished in obscurity for years now despite numerous complaints the job needs addressing. We have demonstrable proof ping issues are a problem yet the dev team has refused to acknowledge it. Monk suffered for years until the dev team caved in when players refused to play the job in Eden's Gate.

Time and time again, we've seen these complaints crop up only for them to be proven accurate. Once again, when it's the prevailing opinion, it isn't simply "a couple dozen people."

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Even leaving aside more complicated things, there are some fundamental bits of the game that, so far as I can recall, are not actually explained anywhere in the game itself. I still run into healers sometimes -- in Endwalker content, even! -- who were not aware that a debuff you can cleanse with Esuna will have a white bar at the top of the debuff icon.

Wait thats a thing??! My god, Ive been missing that. Im gonna pay extra attention from now on, I had no idea that was a thing.
Yeah, Creative Business Unit III, I love ya'll, but ya'll need to work on this.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]To be honest, with the current state of the game, giving DPS responsibility now would just make them complain more. So many players are conditioned to not need to do more than the bare minimum that adding responsibility to them now after basically removing it would just incite complaints.

That's our static's SAM. They claimed to having a hard time hitting Feint cause they're too focused doing their rotation, even when it's not within their burst/reopener windows.

I'd press that Feint for them if I could.