MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Supersnow845]

So what we increase difficulty and after doing the same dungeons so many time and you start to get bored again we repeat the same until nobody plays anymore?

Did you even read my comment I said people are turned away in their first play through because when they do get to do something that’s not talk to Alphinaud for the 79th time the bosses and instances don’t live up to the hype the game itself builds for them, the literal personification of the concept of nihilism is so easy 6/8 of the party can be on the floor for 90% of it with no problems, that is turning prospective players away

I never said make dungeons harder for people who already played the story before because they get bored

[redheadturk]

Did you even read my comment I said people are turned away in their first play through because when they do get to do something that’s not talk to Alphinaud for the 79th time the bosses and instances don’t live up to the hype the game itself builds for them, the literal personification of the concept of nihilism is so easy 6/8 of the party can be on the floor for 90% of it with no problems, that is turning prospective players away

I never said make dungeons harder for people who already played the story before because they get bored

Ya know, I wouldn't have so much of an issue with them tuning up the difficulty a bit if they'd actually make the arena designs less painful for those of us with visual impairments. Adding artificial difficulty via arena/dungeon design isn't the way to go about it, and that strategy is why so many of us disabled folk don't want it.

[novamare]

So what about the people who are actively turned away from the game because it is in their worlds excessively easy to the point of being unenjoyable, sure this is anecdotal but I have seen more than 5 people turned off the game because crucial lynchpin fights like endsinger, hades and thordran go down because you breathed too hard on them. Are there opinions not relevant to this situation at all. The MSQ just feels so hollow because all these enemies that you have been working towards for dozens of quests just get bowled over before they can even do a full mechanical loop

Again there is a difference between what we currently have and savage difficulty, raidwides hitting a bit harder, vuln stacks being tuned up a bit more, maybe a few more x come ruins or harder execution mechanics like starfall wouldn’t go astray

If these bosses can’t hurt us the entire design of the story comes crashing down

I definitely don't know your experiences, but every time roulettes have thrown me into Hades or Endsinger with more than two cutscene-watching sprouts, it hasn't exactly been smooth sailing (until one of us puts on the danger dorito, at least). I know my first time through Endsinger took what, three wipes, to clear. I can't say that felt like breathing on her took her down lol.

So if your point is about the story impact of these fights, the first time is the one that counts the most. Obviously once you've done the fight and know the mechanics, it'll be easier when you run it the next time. But how often are you running max-level story trials outside of roulettes? How often do you get a party without first-timers who bring the engagement because they're just learning new mechanics or just figuring out the nuances of what is probably their first max-level job?

A party full of good players can more or less trivialize most content in this game (even high end content!), so the argument to make MSQ harder in order to make players better seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. Supposing the idea works as planned, "bad" players either drop the game or improve enough to be "good." But then if everyone's good, even on their first runs, it doesn't matter how much more difficult you make the MSQ, because it'll still feel easy enough. But then it's easy and you've alienated the folks who couldn't or didn't want to "git gud" (because, after all, it's just a game; you don't have to be good, and that's okay).

And if anyone tries to say that there wouldn't still be people complaining that it's not engaging or whatever, I'll probably die laughing.

[Striker44]

So what about the people who are actively turned away from the game because it is in their worlds excessively easy to the point of being unenjoyable, sure this is anecdotal but I have seen more than 5 people turned off the game because crucial lynchpin fights like endsinger, hades and thordran go down because you breathed too hard on them.

Then, frankly, maybe this isn't game for them. That's okay. Not every game is going to appeal to every person, even within the same genre. I like FPS games, but I personally just can't get into the ones that are set back in WWI or WWII...I prefer the modern ones. I don't go around insisting that games set in that era add modern weapons just for me; I pick the games that already fit the design I'm looking for. FFXIV isn't an eSports game like WoW has become, with the focus on pushing ever higher M+ keys and going for world-first Mythic+ raids. That's just not FFXIV. It's a story-driven game with an immense focus on the plot and the soundtrack, and is meant to attract a different audience than those looking to push the difficulty as high as they can. That's okay. It means it won't be for everyone, but nothing will, so...

And, I mean, the current approach is working wonders. That "more than 5 people" honestly draws a chuckle when we consider there's literally hundreds of thousands of active players, even now during a content lull. Anecdotal evidence can be great for case studies, but doesn't really mean anything if trying to generalize it to a larger population.

[Dzian]

And, I mean, the current approach is working wonders. That "more than 5 people" honestly draws a chuckle when we consider there's literally hundreds of thousands of active players, even now during a content lull. Anecdotal evidence can be great for case studies, but doesn't really mean anything if trying to generalize it to a larger population.

Even that's anecdotal though.. The game boasts that over 26 million people have played the game. so in comparison to say a few hundred thousand are active isntt exactly great.. even if we say 900k thats still over 25 million that dropped it.

it's quite likely that if the game was tuned just a bit harder. enough to add a hint of credibility to the story that more of those 25 million players would have kept interest for longer.. and equally possible that the game would have millions of active subs instead of hundreds of thousands..

again all annecdotal but when you look at the forums, the login queues, lucky banchos sweeps various other stuff. you seeee a hell of a lot of players getting bored very very quickly..

[redheadturk]

Even that's anecdotal though.. The game boasts that over 26 million people have played the game. so in comparison to say a few hundred thousand are active isntt exactly great.. even if we say 900k thats still over 25 million that dropped it.

it's quite likely that if the game was tuned just a bit harder. enough to add a hint of credibility to the story that more of those 25 million players would have kept interest for longer.. and equally possible that the game would have millions of active subs instead of hundreds of thousands..

again all annecdotal but when you look at the forums, the login queues, lucky banchos sweeps various other stuff. you seeee a hell of a lot of players getting bored very very quickly..

some of the drop out is for story related reasons, so ya know.

[novamare]

Even that's anecdotal though.. The game boasts that over 26 million people have played the game. so in comparison to say a few hundred thousand are active isntt exactly great.. even if we say 900k thats still over 25 million that dropped it.

it's quite likely that if the game was tuned just a bit harder. enough to add a hint of credibility to the story that more of those 25 million players would have kept interest for longer.. and equally possible that the game would have millions of active subs instead of hundreds of thousands..

At a glance, I imagine it's very, very unlikely that those millions of "lost" players that you mention dropped the game because it was too easy.

Many of the abandoned accounts I've seen personally (because yeah, without great publicly available official statistics, we are limited to anecdotes and attempts at censuses) don't even have a single job up to 50 (sometimes they don't have a job at all). And I can't say I've ever heard ARR sprouts complaining that the game was too easy. If anything, to your point of "keeping interest," I've heard that the game is too slow, which is a fair opinion if you're not someone who enjoys the sort of pace the story in this game sets. But the solution to that isn't making the combat harder, it's making the breaks between combat encounters in the MSQ shorter. (For clarity, I'm not advocating doing this, at least not on a large scale, but we see how helpful the trimming of post-ARR MSQ was...)

While I'm sure that there does exist a population of late game players who quit because they didn't feel challenged, I'd wager that you've overestimated that population by an order of magnitude. Especially considering that, as you increase in level, more and more optional high-end content becomes available to you to scratch that itch for a challenge. If those players are annoyed by having to complete the MSQ in order to unlock said high-end content, then I would encourage them to (*gasp*) purchase a story skip.

So frankly I don't think the percentage of active players is a very compelling argument here.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Even that's anecdotal though.. The game boasts that over 26 million people have played the game. so in comparison to say a few hundred thousand are active isntt exactly great.. even if we say 900k thats still over 25 million that dropped it.

it's quite likely that if the game was tuned just a bit harder. enough to add a hint of credibility to the story that more of those 25 million players would have kept interest for longer.. and equally possible that the game would have millions of active subs instead of hundreds of thousands..

again all annecdotal but when you look at the forums, the login queues, lucky banchos sweeps various other stuff. you seeee a hell of a lot of players getting bored very very quickly..

Total accounts is irrelevant - WoW has 100mil+ accounts total (which was back in 2014 when Blizzard even bothered to announce it, probably way, way higher by now), but 2022 statistics show they're about 5ish mil players active. Even if we ignore the fact that 8 years later the total lifetime accounts is likely well, WELL above 100mil, they still only have about 5% of their total playerbase these days.

Total accounts is an irrelevant statistic since the immense, vast majority of players will play a game for a bit then move on, never to return once they move on to the next shiny thing in the industry. The relevant statistics are active accounts, which bancho has shown on an expansion by expansion basis, have been increasing. <1mil players in SB to slightly over a million in SHB to 1.3/4ish mil in EW.

Not to mention as I mentioned earlier in this topic, The paradigm for the industry has shifted. Gamers who play to relax, Gamers who want an easy time and not to be challenged, etc. Are quickly becoming the predominant demographic in gaming. There's a reason Square is pushing the 'solo player experience' - because it's empirically proven its working. Making an MSQ that's more difficult is the literal antithesis of trying to expand the game, when the ever-increasing demographic of gamers taking over the industry want casual, relaxed experiences.

If you want to see what happens when the MSQ begins to delve into content that is more than faceroll, look no further than the huge backlash the more casual players had that came from "In from the Cold" this expansion. To the point the devs had to respond and intervene & had to intentionally nerf the instance even more on easy/very easy so that people could get by.

It's the blunt reality. MSQ and any content tied to it will never be hard. No ifs, ands or buts.

[VerdeLuck]

So what about the people who are actively turned away from the game because it is in their worlds excessively easy to the point of being unenjoyable, sure this is anecdotal but I have seen more than 5 people turned off the game because crucial lynchpin fights like endsinger, hades and thordran go down because you breathed too hard on them. Are there opinions not relevant to this situation at all. The MSQ just feels so hollow because all these enemies that you have been working towards for dozens of quests just get bowled over before they can even do a full mechanical loop

Again there is a difference between what we currently have and savage difficulty, raidwides hitting a bit harder, vuln stacks being tuned up a bit more, maybe a few more x come ruins or harder execution mechanics like starfall wouldn’t go astray

If these bosses can’t hurt us the entire design of the story comes crashing down

Those people won't quit, they'll kick and scream on the forums about how the game is being "dumbed down" and throw tantrums but they're so addicted to the game they're never going to just quit.

[Supersnow845]

Those people won't quit, they'll kick and scream on the forums about how the game is being "dumbed down" and throw tantrums but they're so addicted to the game they're never going to just quit.

You just hear whatever you want to hear and reply to that don’t you, these people I’m talking about were new players that decided to pick the game up after hearing about it or recommendations, they aren’t addicted, they aren’t whining on the forums, they are gone because the game didn’t respect them at all

Then, frankly, maybe this isn't game for them. That's okay. Not every game is going to appeal to every person, even within the same genre. I like FPS games, but I personally just can't get into the ones that are set back in WWI or WWII...I prefer the modern ones. I don't go around insisting that games set in that era add modern weapons just for me; I pick the games that already fit the design I'm looking for. FFXIV isn't an eSports game like WoW has become, with the focus on pushing ever higher M+ keys and going for world-first Mythic+ raids. That's just not FFXIV. It's a story-driven game with an immense focus on the plot and the soundtrack, and is meant to attract a different audience than those looking to push the difficulty as high as they can. That's okay. It means it won't be for everyone, but nothing will, so...

And, I mean, the current approach is working wonders. That "more than 5 people" honestly draws a chuckle when we consider there's literally hundreds of thousands of active players, even now during a content lull. Anecdotal evidence can be great for case studies, but doesn't really mean anything if trying to generalize it to a larger population.

Okay now explain to me how saying “this isn’t the game for them” isn’t toxic when it’s coming from people saying the game needs to stay easy but is 100% toxic when it comes from people asking for the game to be more complex because I’ve been called toxic for exactly the same sentence on this thread no less but coming from the other direction