MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Mostly the first pull of HS and first and last pulls of Mt. Gulg. The last w2w pull of Mt. Gulg pretty much needs everyone to be at their best to be done somewhat comfortably. There is no such pull in any of the EW dungeons.

That 5 pack pull in mt.gulg really pumps adrenaline!

[TaleraRistain]

I like your general attitude, while I admit I have been playing the game for a long while so things might feel easier than intended. It does feel like the games bends over backwards to keep players from failing. I'm absolutely fine with helping struggling players if their effort is genuine instead of wanting to be dragged over the finish line.

Most of the people I've met like that over 8 years of playing have been the ones complaining about what everyone else was not doing that they thought they should be doing. Paying too much attention to other people and making the entire run toxic and annoying so they felt more like a massive millstone we were dragging along. Those are the people I am happy to give the boot. Plus this whole idea of what's "genuine" effort is subjective. I see people come on these boards and call someone "afk" when they're not away from the keyboard and they're active in all fights. Just not up to the standards the given person thinks they should be. I don't care if someone screws up in casual content. Maybe something isn't clicking. Maybe they're normally okay and having an off day. I play this game to play with humans, not robots. And I enjoy the variety that I'm exposed to. Some challenge me quite a lot and keep me on my toes.

I know there are others like me. I'm not claiming to be some majority, though. I only speak for myself. Which is why my answer to the OP is no thanks. That's just not the game I'm interested in playing. Everyone else can form their own opinions and offer feedback to SE. And ultimately they'll make their decisions. If it's something they won't budge on, we can either accept it and continue or speak with our wallets and leave the game.

[Packetdancer]

No thanks. Those people you don't care about leaving behind are the people I'm happy to have in my groups. I enjoy helping them. If they're bad, that's fine. I'm a good player and I can shore up their weak spots. I enjoy being their hero. I enjoy the camaraderie of failure.

Those people you want to leave behind are the ones most likely to laugh with me if we wipe. Then pick ourselves up and try again. And sometimes again and again until we get it. I enjoy that this game makes people who just want to have fun feel welcome.

This is actually a point worth underscoring.

I've mentioned before in other threads that the instances I remember the most are the rare shining ones where everyone just clicks and it's like a well-oiled machine that just plows through things... and the ones where things go so horribly wrong that you just have to laugh or else you're going to cry.

Do I remember a specific average Orbonne run from two weeks ago? Probably not.

Do I remember that Orbonne run fromlast summer where my friend and I, both playing red mage, cast Verraise 40+ times between the two of us? Oh yes. Yes, I do. That memory is seared indelibly into my brain. And while I admit that one started to get stressful at the time, it also has become an anecdote my friend and I can laugh about.

When I get an extreme trial in Mentor Roulette, yeah, I admit that sometimes it's a disaster. But the sheer, shining joy when folks do succeed -- when you explain the mechanics and they get them and suddenly things progress? Or the relieved laughter and thank-yous when people stumble across the finish line bloodied and half-dead, but still successful?

The chance of those experiences is nearly the sole reason I queue into Mentor Roulette to begin with.

(I grant, I say "nearly the sole reason" because while normally I'm easily motivated to run stuff to earn mounts or glamour or titles, something about the mentor mount's proportions just... unnerves me in a way no other thing in this game does, and I couldn't honestly tell you why. But to me the vibe is that of some eldritch horror from beyond the stars pretending to be a horse, and not quite managing to pull it off. I not only have zero desire to have that mount, it is the one thing in the game where I would consider actively grinding content to make it go away. ANYWAY.)

There's nothing wrong with asking for more challenge in optional content. It's optional. SE may want people to do it, and so they may be resistant to making it too challenging, but it's a valid argument to have. If the problem is people aren't prepared for Extremes or Savage, then as someone else said, request more in-between content leading up. But I will have to say no thanks if you want to make the MSQ more unfriendly and leave behind the people I enjoy having fun with.

Seconded on that part I bolded.

As I said earlier in the thread, I do think people are observing a genuine problem: players who do want to break into higher-tier/endgame content have few clear avenues to do so. If you reach a point where the normal content feels easy, but you don't feel ready for savage... there's not a ton of stuff in-between to help you ramp up towards it. There's definitely some, but it's mostly niche stuff that isn't as active once it's no longer current. Some of the Bozja and Zadnor critical engagements, or Delubrum Reginae's normal version, are slightly harder than average content... but with those now past their 'this is current content' shelf date, it's not the easiest content to find people to run it with.

I definitely think that's a thing the game could stand to improve on, no question.

But I think people are observing this actual problem and then seizing on a solution which does not actually properly address it, namely "clearly the MSQ needs a higher difficulty." Because no, it doesn't. Plenty of people play this game to engage with the story, and we don't need to put obstacles in their path for that enjoyment.

Would I enjoy some more difficult dungeons? Sure; I'm certainly eager to see how these Criterion dungeons turn out. But if I want challenging content, I always have the option to go throw myself at savage or ultimate stuff. ("Want to run some roulettes?" "Nah, I'm going to go get my butt kicked by church authorities and/or dragons for three hours." "DSR prog going well, then?")

(Now, if the argument is that the MSQ could do more to prepare people for other content, I will actually agree on that. Not because it needs the difficulty ramped up, but rather because there's a lot of stuff this game is really bad about communicating to players. For instance, if there's anywhere in the game where it notes that debuffs with a white bar on top of them can be cleansed by Esuna, I've certainly never stumbled across it.)

[TaleraRistain]

Haha, yeah those runs that you have to laugh instead of crying. Had a Paradigm's run recently where the two tanks were sprouts and I dunno if they were trolling or they just really like my group's tank but they stuck to him like butter on the second boss. So of course the bosses stayed shielded and we kinda couldn't do anything. And we tried to help them in alliance chat. So we just started memeing and being silly because it kept happening and it just made the fight drag on and on so we had to go silly as a defense. They did eventually get it, so I think they were just trying to be good tanks and follow the expert and missed the chat.

I think the thing with content with a current content shelf date can't be laid entirely at the feel of the developers, though. Eureka and Bozja participation petered out because they put rewards in there, people got those rewards, and then noped out. Some of the same people who complain things aren't hard enough, but then won't participate in keeping the content they say they prefer alive unless SE is constantly shoving new and different carrots under their noses. SE does fail to future proof some things and it's ridiculous we have to turn to outside sources, but things like Baldesion Arsenal Discords are proof that those who really want the content will use it and keep it alive and keep engaging with it and those who just want to use the content will use it and abandon it then complain they have nothing challenging to do.

[Packetdancer]

I think the thing with content with a current content shelf date can't be laid entirely at the feel of the developers, though. Eureka and Bozja participation petered out because they put rewards in there, people got those rewards, and then noped out. Some of the same people who complain things aren't hard enough, but then won't participate in keeping the content they say they prefer alive unless SE is constantly shoving new and different carrots under their noses. SE does fail to future proof some things and it's ridiculous we have to turn to outside sources, but things like Baldesion Arsenal Discords are proof that those who really want the content will use it and keep it alive and keep engaging with it and those who just want to use the content will use it and abandon it then complain they have nothing challenging to do.

While I mostly agree, I'm still going to judge SQEX a bit on this one.

I know folks who only just got to level 80, who would really like their Resistance relics (because pretty weapons!), but who have found there isn't enough population in Bozja now for them to complete things like Castrum Lacus Litore or Delubrum Reginae. And I think having rewards tied to that content that people coming along later will want, but no other way to keep the content alive is at least mildly problematic once the initial waves are past; as you yourself note, people got the rewards and then noped out because there was some other newer reward they now wanted to grind towards -- or because they went "Okay, got my stuff, now I'm going to take my break and go play Other Game for a couple of months until the new raid tier drops." or whatever.

And while Discords like Primal Forays and Eurekan Explorers and whatnot exist—and I've directed the folks I've encountered to those sort of resources—someone trying to just do that content in the game is not necessarily going to know to go look for those.

So I do think SQEX could demonstrably do a little better at future-proofing some things here and incentivizing people to keep the older stuff alive for the newer players following along behind us: add weekly challenge log entries for critical engagements, put Delubrum Reginae into Wondrous Tails, make some of these sort of things give current capped tomestones if you run them with a level-capped character, etc.

I mean, they demonstrably know this does keep older content alive, because they incentivize specific instances of older content in that way already with Wondrous Tails, as well as incentivizing filling whatever older content needs people with daily roulettes.

It's just particularly unfortunate that the content which is poorly incentivized and so sort-of dies off happens to also generally be the best candidates we currently have for "the intermediate step(s) between the difficulty of the MSQ and that of higher-end stuff like savage".

[VelKallor]

So I do think SQEX could demonstrably do a little better at future-proofing some things here and incentivizing people to keep the older stuff alive for the newer players following along behind us: add weekly challenge log entries for critical engagements, put Delubrum Reginae into Wondrous Tails, make some of these sort of things give current capped tomestones if you run them with a level-capped character, etc.

I mean, they demonstrably know this does keep older content alive, because they incentivize specific instances of older content in that way already with Wondrous Tails, as well as incentivizing filling whatever older content needs people with daily roulettes.

It's just particularly unfortunate that the content which is poorly incentivized and so sort-of dies off happens to also generally be the best candidates we currently have for "the intermediate step(s) between the difficulty of the MSQ and that of higher-end stuff like savage".

1000% agree.

It also makes it harder when later on you feel like going back to do it for the fun of it..and its a ghost town.

[ForteNightshade]

There is a considerable amount of content that bridges the gap between the MSQs and Savage tier content. There is no need to force the MSQs to be harder if you are looking for any other sort of challenge. It already exists. MSQs, more specifically the trials, are NOT easy for me to do. Titania was quite difficult for me to get done. Does that mean that in your eyes I should be excluded because I don't want to put in any effort? Well newsflash: by the time I got finished doing Titania I was shaking like a leaf. I was trying my damnedest to do everything right and barely got it done. I have a few friends who also have difficulty getting the trials done. But in your eyes we are people "who want to put in almost no effort yet still expect a clear". I am going to chalk this up to you being grossly ignorant of what people like myself go through when playing this game, rather than you trying to outright libel me. I am hoping that you are not that malicious. The simple fact is there will be people who will be excluded from this game if the MSQs are made harder and not all of those people are lazy like you seem to suggest.

To be entirely blunt, if you're "shaking like a leaf" over Titania, then you simply haven't practiced whatsoever prior to reaching her. She introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at you already in spades. The fact you're painting her as some monumental challenge screams you either don't know mechanic well enough or don't play your job well. Now either is entirely fine... provided you're willing to practice and get better. Considering a lot of players aren't, well, my statement stands. When I see Black Mages who don't press Fire 1 in their rotation, I'm going to say they aren't putting in much effort to learn considering that's the base rotation from ARR levels.

Nevertheless, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be some insurmountable wall. A good chunk of people would like things like dungeons to be more than simply wall pull a bunch of wet noodles and sleep to victory. When dungeons don't even need a healer it speaks volumes to how grossly undertuned they are.

As for this "considerable amount of content between MSQ and Savage." Where? A good chunk of that content has continuously been watered down because god forbid there's content people can't do. Sephirot Unreal will be coming out in three weeks time and he will completely obliterate every EX trial that existed over the last three years that isn't named Warrior of Light. The difference from his era and now is staggering. Hydaelyn and Zodiark were so woefully undertuned, they were cleared, on release, without a healer. Endsinger is a 12 minute fight an average PF group will kill in 9. She has a single "gotcha" mechanic that will one-shot. Otherwise, she does practically nothing. One person slaps on the Danger Dorito and leads everyone to victory. Even Savage isn't immune to this as P1S is the easiest first entry fight we've had since Alte Roite, who was notoriously meme'd on when he was killed in a single pull.

[Packetdancer]

To be entirely blunt, if you're "shaking like a leaf" over Titania, then you simply haven't practiced whatsoever prior to reaching her. She introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at you already in spades. The fact you're painting her as some monumental challenge screams you either don't know mechanic well enough or don't play your job well. Now either is entirely fine... provided you're willing to practice and get better.

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. While I agree the Titania trial is not actually possessed of any really remotely difficult mechanics, I don't think it introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at someone prior. At least, if the person in question has only really done MSQ content.

Because while none of those mechanics are new, I think some of them are ones that hadn't been used in normal content prior to Titania... or if they had been used, they weren't used often.

For instance, the 'starburst' telegraph that shows where her thorns will go; I can't offhand think of anywhere prior to Titania that those get used in normal content. (I may be forgetting one, though, I grant.) Similarly, things like sealing the puddles and then stacking in one of those puddles for the fire punch... while it's not unheard-of for normal content to have follow-on mechanics like that, I would say it is uncommon.

Add to that the fact that Titania has some sort of weird -- and entirely unwarranted -- reputation for being Super Difficult, and I've seen folks enter that trial nervous to start with. And being nervous about "oh god I'm going to mess up" is probably not the best mindset to make tackling potentially somewhat-unfamiliar mechanics feel like a simple task.

When I see Black Mages who don't press Fire 1 in their rotation, I'm going to say they aren't putting in much effort to learn considering that's the base rotation from ARR levels.

...to be honest, I don't use Fire I in my black mage rotation.

It's like... Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV (if I've got the time/speed to pull that fourth one off before Astral Fire drops off), Despair, Manafont, Fire IV, Despair, Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Thunder III, and cycle back to the start with Fire III. Obviously with some Xenoglossy, Sharpcast, Triplecast, and Swiftcast mixed in there as appropriate. (As black mage is my last DPS to get to 90, I don't yet have Paradox to work into that anywhere.)

That said, I also don't play black mage much -- or play it in any particularly high-end content, because it's 100% my least favorite job in the game -- so I grant I might be doing it wrong. (In fact, I am probably doing it wrong.) But that just feels to me like it should be the most effective rotation, and there's no place in there I see for Fire I.

[Deveryn]

I'm not 100% sure I agree with this. While I agree the Titania trial is not actually possessed of any really remotely difficult mechanics, I don't think it introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at someone prior. At least, if the person in question has only really done MSQ content.

Because while none of those mechanics are new, I think some of them are ones that hadn't been used in normal content prior to Titania... or if they had been used, they weren't used often.

For instance, the 'starburst' telegraph that shows where her thorns will go; I can't offhand think of anywhere prior to Titania that those get used in normal content. (I may be forgetting one, though, I grant.) Similarly, things like sealing the puddles and then stacking in one of those puddles for the fire punch... while it's not unheard-of for normal content to have follow-on mechanics like that, I would say it is uncommon.

The Mist Dragon in The Burn uses the starburst telegraph. You get one first then 2 later on.

As for elemental damage, that's been used enough and the story certainly talks enough about how the elements oppose each other. When you face Shinryu, you have puddles that give you +fire resist and -lightning.

The bridge between MSQ content and extreme / savage is in doing the regular content and playing through everything more than once and properly learning what does what. To make this all easier, they're going back and making sure all markers are consistent. In the meantime, the information is out there for all the fights.

[Eraden]

To be entirely blunt, if you're "shaking like a leaf" over Titania, then you simply haven't practiced whatsoever prior to reaching her. She introduces nothing the game hasn't thrown at you already in spades. The fact you're painting her as some monumental challenge screams you either don't know mechanic well enough or don't play your job well. Now either is entirely fine... provided you're willing to practice and get better. Considering a lot of players aren't, well, my statement stands. When I see Black Mages who don't press Fire 1 in their rotation, I'm going to say they aren't putting in much effort to learn considering that's the base rotation from ARR levels.

Nevertheless, nobody is asking for the MSQ content to be some insurmountable wall. A good chunk of people would like things like dungeons to be more than simply wall pull a bunch of wet noodles and sleep to victory. When dungeons don't even need a healer it speaks volumes to how grossly undertuned they are.

As for this "considerable amount of content between MSQ and Savage." Where? A good chunk of that content has continuously been watered down because god forbid there's content people can't do. Sephirot Unreal will be coming out in three weeks time and he was completely obliterate every EX trial that existed over the last three years that isn't named Warrior of Light. The difference from his era and now is staggering. Hydaelyn and Zodiark were so woefully undertuned, they were cleared, on release, without a healer. Endsinger is a 12 minute fight an average PF group will kill in 9. She has a single "gotcha" mechanic that will one-shot. Otherwise, she does practically nothing. One person slaps on the Danger Dorito and leads everyone to victory. Even Savage isn't immune to this as P1S is the easiest first entry fight we've had since Alte Roite, who was notoriously meme'd on when he was killed in a single pull.

I can tell from your ignorant tirade that you don't have the first clue about what Parkinson's is like. My condition is centered in the brain. Getting emotional in any way and that includes becoming excited, triggers a response that causes my entire body but more specifically my limbs and hands, to start shaking uncontrollably. Some days are worse than others. I try to get these duties done on my better days. My condition can also be triggered by physical exertion, even small amounts, such as carrying a full cup of water. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more on topics before you post opinions on them. I am going give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk this idiotic post of yours to plain ignorance as opposed to outright malice.