MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Striker44]

I do think that nowadays the difficulty of the MSQ has been significantly reduced due to a number of factors, but this hasn’t always been to the benefit of the player experience. Fundamentally, video games should provide logical and increasing challenges as time goes on in the main campaign. In single player titles these challenges can be reduced via difficulty options, which in FFXIV’s case would be the use of Duty Support/Trusts whose AI behavior provides clues about how to handle certain boss mechanics, or the difficulty options that appear after one fails an instanced battle.

Wildstar says hello

And this already happens. ARR dungeons gradually increase in difficulty, with Cutter's Cry being the first to introduce real boss mechanics with the blue/purple, attracted energy ball, etc.. And Aurum Vale still results in early wipes with the amount of trash and pats.

And then compare the first EW dungeon with the first dungeon of any previous xpac, and the mechanics are significantly more complex, especially on the final boss fight.

So, it already happens.

And as many others have mentioned, the MSQ itself still needs to be accessible to the playerbase at large, including people of all ages and abilities, most especially in a game like FFXIV which is focused on its storyline. We don't need more difficult MSQ content that will only drive people away. Notice that the things you "approve" of are mainly optional content. That's exactly how it should be.

(And should I say "posting in an aveyond thread"?)

[Packetdancer]

I feel like we already have a good bridge with the quality video guides that are out there. Unfortunately, people don't want to do a little studying beforehand.

While I'm not one of those who thinks the MSQ content needs to be made harder, I disagree that video guides are a sufficient stepping stone between the content we have and the higher-end content.

Yes, video guides and Toolboxes and such are great at explaining how mechanics work, though many people -- and I include myself in this -- only really fully grasp the mechanic after we've seen it in play for ourselves. (Having watched a video beforehand or run through a Toolbox for a strat certainly makes it click a lost faster, though.)

But I know a lot of people who will watch a video and understand the mechanic, but still have trouble executing it. Maybe it's because they can't figure out how to keep casting while also doing a mechanic. Maybe it's because they aren't used to watching for environmental cues as opposed to ground telegraphs. ("Okay, this is counter-clockwise, jumpy knight's at A, where are the eye and Thordan...") Maybe it's because they're used to being able to focus on one mechanic at a time, not needing to remember things where you have paired mechanics like "okay, this time was In and then Spread, so the next time this mechanic happens it will be Out and Stack".

And while videos can help bridge the gaps in terms of how a mechanic works, there's not a lot of content that allows someone to actually practice/polish the skills that serve you well in endgame content except... well, that endgame content itself.

Now, it's possible to find learning groups, of course. For instance, my FC periodically organizes another incarnation of our newbie static, the Rookie Raiders; the Rooks exist to introduce interested folks to savage for the first time, help them get their feet under them... and then the Rooks dissolve and the new raiders go off into other statics, and eventually another incarnation of the Rooks forms.

And there are learning groups advertised on /r/FFXIVRECRUITMENT or various data-center raiding Discords, etc. Or sometimes people run learning parties in PF; I've run a number of learning parties for this savage tier when I have nothing better to do.

But short of going into actual endgame content to learn -- and hoping people are patient -- there's not a lot of content someone can just queue into on their own to practice those things. You can try to make do by running current normal raids or the current alliance raid ad nauseum, and that will help, but I agree with others that the game could do with an intermediate step of difficulty between what the MSQ requires and what the endgame expects.

I just don't think that intermediate step needs to be the MSQ itself; plenty of people play this game largely for the story, and that's a fine way to engage. We don't need to chase them off. It'd just be nice to provide some tools for those who do want more than the story to more readily start out on that journey.

i actually find EW dungeons engaging. I think the alliance raid is too easy tho.
but yes casual contents are too easy. I don't think ppl are really that bad but just too lazy to press few more buttons.

Alliance raids are always going to be tricky to balance. You need them to be doable with comparatively low gear ilevel, because they exist in part as a "catchup" mechanic, giving people who aren't raiding savage a way other than just capped tomestones to improve their gear prior to the next patch. But as soon as people have gained that gear... once a majority of people have the gear, a mishandled mechanic becomes maybe borderline survivable, you can kill the boss that little bit faster and skip the one mechanic, etc.

I do think that this one did seem to lose its teeth remarkably fast, but I'm also willing to attribute that to a combination of the aforementioned 'alliance raids are tricky to balance to start with', combined with this being the first gear tier with the new stats squish; I expect they'll have more of a handle on how to balance things in our new squished reality with the coming gear tier.

Wildstar says hello

*cries*

[Mosha]

at the end of the day, MSQ content should neither be set at the lowest nor highest common denominator, got to find that sweet spot. all what I would like is content to punish me for not respecting it.

[aveyond-dreams]

at the end of the day, MSQ content should neither be set at the lowest nor highest common denominator, got to find that sweet spot. all what I would like is content to punish me for not respecting it.

This is basically how I feel as well.

[Semirhage]

Yes yes, the mythical blind quadriplegic 150-year-old Maasai grandmother with a 5kbps internet connection for whom all MSQ content must be designed around.

I've never met a disabled person who plays this game and claims the MSQ would be impossible if they added a sprinkle of gameplay engagement.

I have encountered a whole lot of Forum Princesses too lazy to countenance actual gameplay hiding behind their fictional 140 year old grandfather because nothing must -ever- cause failure or hold up a mirror to their own laziness.

[Eraden]

Yes yes, the mythical blind quadriplegic 150-year-old Maasai grandmother with a 5kbps internet connection for whom all MSQ content must be designed around.

I've never met a disabled person who plays this game and claims the MSQ would be impossible if they added a sprinkle of gameplay engagement.

I have encountered a whole lot of Forum Princesses too lazy to countenance actual gameplay hiding behind their fictional 140 year old grandfather because nothing must -ever- cause failure or hold up a mirror to their own laziness.

Well, congratulations, you've just encountered one such person (me) and I know of others who are like me (not surprising since most of my other friends are also elderly). We are not as uncommon as you might think. Unless that is, you are going to start claiming that I am a liar. Do you need my damned medical records to prove my existence to you?

[redheadturk]

Well, congratulations, you've just encountered one such person (me) and I know of others who are like me (not surprising since most of my other friends are also elderly). We are not as uncommon as you might think. Unless that is, you are going to start claiming that I am a liar. Do you need my damned medical records to prove my existence to you?

^this. I am 52, legally blind, and have severe coordination issues. I raid savage, but it takes me a while to learn the fights in such a way that I can react to the mechanics a few milliseconds before they go out. I have to react before they go out or I will get hit by them. Making MSQ content too much more difficult would frustrate me to the point that I would not want to keep trying.

[Supersnow845]

^this. I am 52, legally blind, and have severe coordination issues. I raid savage, but it takes me a while to learn the fights in such a way that I can react to the mechanics a few milliseconds before they go out. I have to react before they go out or I will get hit by them. Making MSQ content too much more difficult would frustrate me to the point that I would not want to keep trying.

Wait I’m confused I understand your condition but how can you both raid savage and almost be at limit with the MSQ difficulty, mechanics go out way slower in normal content than savage content, if you aren’t dodging with 2-3 seconds to spare in normal then you’d be getting hit by every mechanic in savage

[weebtext]

Wait I’m confused I understand your condition but how can you both raid savage and almost be at limit with the MSQ difficulty, mechanics go out way slower in normal content than savage content, if you aren’t dodging with 2-3 seconds to spare in normal then you’d be getting hit by every mechanic in savage

Not to mention that in savage a good chunk of aoes aren't telegraphed.

[redheadturk]

Wait I’m confused I understand your condition but how can you both raid savage and almost be at limit with the MSQ difficulty, mechanics go out way slower in normal content than savage content, if you aren’t dodging with 2-3 seconds to spare in normal then you’d be getting hit by every mechanic in savage

A damn good shot caller, primarily. By the time I have been hit by the same mechanic a dozen or so times I learn the pattern so I can predict it going off in time to avoid it. That is also why I struggle with mechanics like Channeling where it's random though [especially when I'm in a crowd of people so reading the marker is rough for me.]

Also, it isn't so much that I am at the limit as that I don't want to deal with that level of frustration and the time it takes to learn and overcome that challenge in casual main story content and I shouldn't have to.

One more edit to add: The reason I will tolerate the frustration of dying to/wiping to mechanics time and time again in Savage is because Savage is supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be frustrating and you are supposed to fail again and again and again until it finally clicks. There is no feeling more satisfying than clearing a savage after your thirtieth wipe. But I don't want to go through that in MSQ.