MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Supersnow845]

I assume when people want more complex arenas, they mean things like the Rivenroad from 1.x. (For those not familiar, the Rivenroad was a multi-level arena where you fought Nael van Darnus; the main platform survives as the arena for the Nael fight in T9.)

Personally, I don't care about the shape, I just wouldn't mind more fights where the arena itself is an integral part of the fight, rather than just a patterned surface on which the fight takes place. E3S, E4S, E9S tiles phase... heck, I'd argue that even P2S is a decent example.

(The arena in P3S is part of the fight too, but that's less due to actual mechanics involving the arena and more due to really bad color palette choices.)

1.0 got a lot of things right but damn if nael and the rivenroad encounter isn’t still one of my absolute favourite encounters in the game up until this point, that fight was so iconic

[Imora]

Yeah, nah, no multi level arenas, thanks. LoS issues galore.

[Absurdity]

Yeah, nah, no multi level arenas, thanks. LoS issues galore.

E4S begs to differ

[Packetdancer]

Yeah, nah, no multi level arenas, thanks. LoS issues galore.

I think it depends on how they set it up.

I'll admit I don't think the Rivenroad would be the best arena for the game as it stands now, but I do think that fights that do more things with the arena in general would be cool. Whether it's removing chunks of the arena (E3S) or just potentially doing so (E9S), or breaking the arena up into layers (E4S), or whatever. Honestly, even the E12N shenanigans where the platforms get smashed and you travel to a new one could be a really interesting element, if it were part of a mechanic. (Rather than functionally just a check that you aren't entirely asleep at the keys and so will leave the platform in time.)

As an example of such: I have a fight I've designed for a D&D campaign where the 'boss' enemy is functionally a giant tornado, with there are two rings of little floating "islands" of land whirling around him in opposite directions. During the fight, the players will need to hop from one island to another to let them carry them away from certain dangers as parts of the battlefield become hazardous... or, alternatively, need to NOT be on the little islands that are about to rotate into the Bad.

(This entailed writing a custom plugin for Foundry to let me have the spinning multi-layered battle map, but I feel like it's gonna be worth it.)

I think something along those lines could be used in a raid and make for an interesting mechanic.

That said, though, I'm also happy whenever I see interesting new mechanics. Having to use your shadows in E10S for second voidgate was, I think, a brilliant example of this.

[TaleraRistain]

No thanks. Those people you don't care about leaving behind are the people I'm happy to have in my groups. I enjoy helping them. If they're bad, that's fine. I'm a good player and I can shore up their weak spots. I enjoy being their hero. I enjoy the camaraderie of failure. Those people you want to leave behind are the ones most likely to laugh with me if we wipe. Then pick ourselves up and try again. And sometimes again and again until we get it. I enjoy that this game makes people who just want to have fun feel welcome.

There's nothing wrong with asking for more challenge in optional content. It's optional. SE may want people to do it, and so they may be resistant to making it too challenging, but it's a valid argument to have. If the problem is people aren't prepared for Extremes or Savage, then as someone else said, request more in-between content leading up. But I will have to say no thanks if you want to make the MSQ more unfriendly and leave behind the people I enjoy having fun with.

[Towowo]

No thanks. Those people you don't care about leaving behind are the people I'm happy to have in my groups. I enjoy helping them. If they're bad, that's fine. I'm a good player and I can shore up their weak spots. I enjoy being their hero. I enjoy the camaraderie of failure. Those people you want to leave behind are the ones most likely to laugh with me if we wipe. Then pick ourselves up and try again. And sometimes again and again until we get it. I enjoy that this game makes people who just want to have fun feel welcome.

There's nothing wrong with asking for more challenge in optional content. It's optional. SE may want people to do it, and so they may be resistant to making it too challenging, but it's a valid argument to have. If the problem is people aren't prepared for Extremes or Savage, then as someone else said, request more in-between content leading up. But I will have to say no thanks if you want to make the MSQ more unfriendly and leave behind the people I enjoy having fun with.

I like your general attitude, while I admit I have been playing the game for a long while so things might feel easier than intended. It does feel like the games bends over backwards to keep players from failing. I'm absolutely fine with helping struggling players if their effort is genuine instead of wanting to be dragged over the finish line.

[TaleraRistain]

I like your general attitude, while I admit I have been playing the game for a long while so things might feel easier than intended. It does feel like the games bends over backwards to keep players from failing. I'm absolutely fine with helping struggling players if their effort is genuine instead of wanting to be dragged over the finish line.

Most of the people I've met like that over 8 years of playing have been the ones complaining about what everyone else was not doing that they thought they should be doing. Paying too much attention to other people and making the entire run toxic and annoying so they felt more like a massive millstone we were dragging along. Those are the people I am happy to give the boot. Plus this whole idea of what's "genuine" effort is subjective. I see people come on these boards and call someone "afk" when they're not away from the keyboard and they're active in all fights. Just not up to the standards the given person thinks they should be. I don't care if someone screws up in casual content. Maybe something isn't clicking. Maybe they're normally okay and having an off day. I play this game to play with humans, not robots. And I enjoy the variety that I'm exposed to. Some challenge me quite a lot and keep me on my toes.

I know there are others like me. I'm not claiming to be some majority, though. I only speak for myself. Which is why my answer to the OP is no thanks. That's just not the game I'm interested in playing. Everyone else can form their own opinions and offer feedback to SE. And ultimately they'll make their decisions. If it's something they won't budge on, we can either accept it and continue or speak with our wallets and leave the game.

[Packetdancer]

No thanks. Those people you don't care about leaving behind are the people I'm happy to have in my groups. I enjoy helping them. If they're bad, that's fine. I'm a good player and I can shore up their weak spots. I enjoy being their hero. I enjoy the camaraderie of failure.

Those people you want to leave behind are the ones most likely to laugh with me if we wipe. Then pick ourselves up and try again. And sometimes again and again until we get it. I enjoy that this game makes people who just want to have fun feel welcome.

This is actually a point worth underscoring.

I've mentioned before in other threads that the instances I remember the most are the rare shining ones where everyone just clicks and it's like a well-oiled machine that just plows through things... and the ones where things go so horribly wrong that you just have to laugh or else you're going to cry.

Do I remember a specific average Orbonne run from two weeks ago? Probably not.

Do I remember that Orbonne run fromlast summer where my friend and I, both playing red mage, cast Verraise 40+ times between the two of us? Oh yes. Yes, I do. That memory is seared indelibly into my brain. And while I admit that one started to get stressful at the time, it also has become an anecdote my friend and I can laugh about.

When I get an extreme trial in Mentor Roulette, yeah, I admit that sometimes it's a disaster. But the sheer, shining joy when folks do succeed -- when you explain the mechanics and they get them and suddenly things progress? Or the relieved laughter and thank-yous when people stumble across the finish line bloodied and half-dead, but still successful?

The chance of those experiences is nearly the sole reason I queue into Mentor Roulette to begin with.

(I grant, I say "nearly the sole reason" because while normally I'm easily motivated to run stuff to earn mounts or glamour or titles, something about the mentor mount's proportions just... unnerves me in a way no other thing in this game does, and I couldn't honestly tell you why. But to me the vibe is that of some eldritch horror from beyond the stars pretending to be a horse, and not quite managing to pull it off. I not only have zero desire to have that mount, it is the one thing in the game where I would consider actively grinding content to make it go away. ANYWAY.)

There's nothing wrong with asking for more challenge in optional content. It's optional. SE may want people to do it, and so they may be resistant to making it too challenging, but it's a valid argument to have. If the problem is people aren't prepared for Extremes or Savage, then as someone else said, request more in-between content leading up. But I will have to say no thanks if you want to make the MSQ more unfriendly and leave behind the people I enjoy having fun with.

Seconded on that part I bolded.

As I said earlier in the thread, I do think people are observing a genuine problem: players who do want to break into higher-tier/endgame content have few clear avenues to do so. If you reach a point where the normal content feels easy, but you don't feel ready for savage... there's not a ton of stuff in-between to help you ramp up towards it. There's definitely some, but it's mostly niche stuff that isn't as active once it's no longer current. Some of the Bozja and Zadnor critical engagements, or Delubrum Reginae's normal version, are slightly harder than average content... but with those now past their 'this is current content' shelf date, it's not the easiest content to find people to run it with.

I definitely think that's a thing the game could stand to improve on, no question.

But I think people are observing this actual problem and then seizing on a solution which does not actually properly address it, namely "clearly the MSQ needs a higher difficulty." Because no, it doesn't. Plenty of people play this game to engage with the story, and we don't need to put obstacles in their path for that enjoyment.

Would I enjoy some more difficult dungeons? Sure; I'm certainly eager to see how these Criterion dungeons turn out. But if I want challenging content, I always have the option to go throw myself at savage or ultimate stuff. ("Want to run some roulettes?" "Nah, I'm going to go get my butt kicked by church authorities and/or dragons for three hours." "DSR prog going well, then?")

(Now, if the argument is that the MSQ could do more to prepare people for other content, I will actually agree on that. Not because it needs the difficulty ramped up, but rather because there's a lot of stuff this game is really bad about communicating to players. For instance, if there's anywhere in the game where it notes that debuffs with a white bar on top of them can be cleansed by Esuna, I've certainly never stumbled across it.)

[TaleraRistain]

Haha, yeah those runs that you have to laugh instead of crying. Had a Paradigm's run recently where the two tanks were sprouts and I dunno if they were trolling or they just really like my group's tank but they stuck to him like butter on the second boss. So of course the bosses stayed shielded and we kinda couldn't do anything. And we tried to help them in alliance chat. So we just started memeing and being silly because it kept happening and it just made the fight drag on and on so we had to go silly as a defense. They did eventually get it, so I think they were just trying to be good tanks and follow the expert and missed the chat.

I think the thing with content with a current content shelf date can't be laid entirely at the feel of the developers, though. Eureka and Bozja participation petered out because they put rewards in there, people got those rewards, and then noped out. Some of the same people who complain things aren't hard enough, but then won't participate in keeping the content they say they prefer alive unless SE is constantly shoving new and different carrots under their noses. SE does fail to future proof some things and it's ridiculous we have to turn to outside sources, but things like Baldesion Arsenal Discords are proof that those who really want the content will use it and keep it alive and keep engaging with it and those who just want to use the content will use it and abandon it then complain they have nothing challenging to do.

[Packetdancer]

I think the thing with content with a current content shelf date can't be laid entirely at the feel of the developers, though. Eureka and Bozja participation petered out because they put rewards in there, people got those rewards, and then noped out. Some of the same people who complain things aren't hard enough, but then won't participate in keeping the content they say they prefer alive unless SE is constantly shoving new and different carrots under their noses. SE does fail to future proof some things and it's ridiculous we have to turn to outside sources, but things like Baldesion Arsenal Discords are proof that those who really want the content will use it and keep it alive and keep engaging with it and those who just want to use the content will use it and abandon it then complain they have nothing challenging to do.

While I mostly agree, I'm still going to judge SQEX a bit on this one.

I know folks who only just got to level 80, who would really like their Resistance relics (because pretty weapons!), but who have found there isn't enough population in Bozja now for them to complete things like Castrum Lacus Litore or Delubrum Reginae. And I think having rewards tied to that content that people coming along later will want, but no other way to keep the content alive is at least mildly problematic once the initial waves are past; as you yourself note, people got the rewards and then noped out because there was some other newer reward they now wanted to grind towards -- or because they went "Okay, got my stuff, now I'm going to take my break and go play Other Game for a couple of months until the new raid tier drops." or whatever.

And while Discords like Primal Forays and Eurekan Explorers and whatnot exist—and I've directed the folks I've encountered to those sort of resources—someone trying to just do that content in the game is not necessarily going to know to go look for those.

So I do think SQEX could demonstrably do a little better at future-proofing some things here and incentivizing people to keep the older stuff alive for the newer players following along behind us: add weekly challenge log entries for critical engagements, put Delubrum Reginae into Wondrous Tails, make some of these sort of things give current capped tomestones if you run them with a level-capped character, etc.

I mean, they demonstrably know this does keep older content alive, because they incentivize specific instances of older content in that way already with Wondrous Tails, as well as incentivizing filling whatever older content needs people with daily roulettes.

It's just particularly unfortunate that the content which is poorly incentivized and so sort-of dies off happens to also generally be the best candidates we currently have for "the intermediate step(s) between the difficulty of the MSQ and that of higher-end stuff like savage".