MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[AmiableApkallu]

I still don't get why people hate square/circle boss arenas. I personally prefer them. Nowhere for morons to LoS my heals, no elevation nonsense making lalafell unable to see the tank/healer/boss.

That reminds me of my first run of Sastasha as a Lala WHM. I had not yet learned line of sight was a thing... Let alone that ambient furniture mattered...

I assume when people want more complex arenas, they mean things like the Rivenroad from 1.x. (For those not familiar, the Rivenroad was a multi-level arena where you fought Nael van Darnus; the main platform survives as the arena for the Nael fight in T9.)

Personally, I don't care about the shape, I just wouldn't mind more fights where the arena itself is an integral part of the fight, rather than just a patterned surface on which the fight takes place.

Ditto. I mean, don't get rid of the patterns on the floor (I can't visualize a straight line to save my life), but not everything needs to be a neat little stage upon which we dance.

[EnigmaticDodo]

you mean him ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogCRNvghbiw

I think so? Perhaps I misremembered. My bad on that if so. Either way, dude is a boss and doesn't seem to let circumstances get him down and prevent him from playing well!

[Supersnow845]

I assume when people want more complex arenas, they mean things like the Rivenroad from 1.x. (For those not familiar, the Rivenroad was a multi-level arena where you fought Nael van Darnus; the main platform survives as the arena for the Nael fight in T9.)

Personally, I don't care about the shape, I just wouldn't mind more fights where the arena itself is an integral part of the fight, rather than just a patterned surface on which the fight takes place. E3S, E4S, E9S tiles phase... heck, I'd argue that even P2S is a decent example.

(The arena in P3S is part of the fight too, but that's less due to actual mechanics involving the arena and more due to really bad color palette choices.)

1.0 got a lot of things right but damn if nael and the rivenroad encounter isn’t still one of my absolute favourite encounters in the game up until this point, that fight was so iconic

[Packetdancer]

That reminds me of my first run of Sastasha as a Lala WHM. I had not yet learned line of sight was a thing... Let alone that ambient furniture mattered...

To quote the wonderful Josh Stryfe Hayes Anime Healers vs MMO Healers video...

"Can't heal through walls, can I, genius?"

1.0 got a lot of things right but damn if nael and the rivenroad encounter isn’t still one of my absolute favourite encounters in the game up until this point, that fight was so iconic

I would say that 1.0 got a lot of things right -- sometimes more than it gets credit for -- but it also demonstrably got a breathtaking number of things wrong; it's just easier to focus on the good stuff now, from a safe distance of many years. But if I actually think back, I remember the frustration of getting lost in a maze of copy-pasted trees in the 1.x Black Shroud. I remember market wards. (Imagine everything that's wrong with our current housing system... and now make that the basis for the player marketboard system! WOO!)

I remember running out of anima at one point and thus not being able to use aetherytes for the rest of the day, because I had only 1 anima point and I needed 4 even to teleport within the Black Shroud, much less to anywhere else... though I'll own that one, as I depleted my anima entirely through my own stupidity in bouncing around the realm haphazardly. (But man, of all the regions to get stuck in...)

...but yeah, the Rivenroad was pretty dang cool. You're not wrong. I mean, there's a reason it came to mind and I used it as my example of a non-standard, interesting arena design that wasn't just a single circle or square.

[Axxion]

I think so? Perhaps I misremembered. My bad on that if so. Either way, dude is a boss and doesn't seem to let circumstances get him down and prevent him from playing well!

you should have read the first comment, its great

[Imora]

Yeah, nah, no multi level arenas, thanks. LoS issues galore.

[Absurdity]

Yeah, nah, no multi level arenas, thanks. LoS issues galore.

E4S begs to differ

[Packetdancer]

Yeah, nah, no multi level arenas, thanks. LoS issues galore.

I think it depends on how they set it up.

I'll admit I don't think the Rivenroad would be the best arena for the game as it stands now, but I do think that fights that do more things with the arena in general would be cool. Whether it's removing chunks of the arena (E3S) or just potentially doing so (E9S), or breaking the arena up into layers (E4S), or whatever. Honestly, even the E12N shenanigans where the platforms get smashed and you travel to a new one could be a really interesting element, if it were part of a mechanic. (Rather than functionally just a check that you aren't entirely asleep at the keys and so will leave the platform in time.)

As an example of such: I have a fight I've designed for a D&D campaign where the 'boss' enemy is functionally a giant tornado, with there are two rings of little floating "islands" of land whirling around him in opposite directions. During the fight, the players will need to hop from one island to another to let them carry them away from certain dangers as parts of the battlefield become hazardous... or, alternatively, need to NOT be on the little islands that are about to rotate into the Bad.

(This entailed writing a custom plugin for Foundry to let me have the spinning multi-layered battle map, but I feel like it's gonna be worth it.)

I think something along those lines could be used in a raid and make for an interesting mechanic.

That said, though, I'm also happy whenever I see interesting new mechanics. Having to use your shadows in E10S for second voidgate was, I think, a brilliant example of this.

[TaleraRistain]

No thanks. Those people you don't care about leaving behind are the people I'm happy to have in my groups. I enjoy helping them. If they're bad, that's fine. I'm a good player and I can shore up their weak spots. I enjoy being their hero. I enjoy the camaraderie of failure. Those people you want to leave behind are the ones most likely to laugh with me if we wipe. Then pick ourselves up and try again. And sometimes again and again until we get it. I enjoy that this game makes people who just want to have fun feel welcome.

There's nothing wrong with asking for more challenge in optional content. It's optional. SE may want people to do it, and so they may be resistant to making it too challenging, but it's a valid argument to have. If the problem is people aren't prepared for Extremes or Savage, then as someone else said, request more in-between content leading up. But I will have to say no thanks if you want to make the MSQ more unfriendly and leave behind the people I enjoy having fun with.

[Towowo]

No thanks. Those people you don't care about leaving behind are the people I'm happy to have in my groups. I enjoy helping them. If they're bad, that's fine. I'm a good player and I can shore up their weak spots. I enjoy being their hero. I enjoy the camaraderie of failure. Those people you want to leave behind are the ones most likely to laugh with me if we wipe. Then pick ourselves up and try again. And sometimes again and again until we get it. I enjoy that this game makes people who just want to have fun feel welcome.

There's nothing wrong with asking for more challenge in optional content. It's optional. SE may want people to do it, and so they may be resistant to making it too challenging, but it's a valid argument to have. If the problem is people aren't prepared for Extremes or Savage, then as someone else said, request more in-between content leading up. But I will have to say no thanks if you want to make the MSQ more unfriendly and leave behind the people I enjoy having fun with.

I like your general attitude, while I admit I have been playing the game for a long while so things might feel easier than intended. It does feel like the games bends over backwards to keep players from failing. I'm absolutely fine with helping struggling players if their effort is genuine instead of wanting to be dragged over the finish line.