MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[Absurdity]

So sad the game went to quite challenging where you had nothing to do on copperbell second boss and just ignore mechanic on last boss it was a dungeon for real gamers.

Old Copperbell was turned into a joke because SE never updated the bosses to account for our increased potencies. In terms of actual mechanics the old one had a lot more interesting ideas that weren't just the usual "don't stand in the bad" dance.


I do agree that some of them fall flat, like the 2nd boss having you stand around and do nothing for most of the time, but the idea for the original Gygas fight, having to deal with infinitely spawning adds and burning down the boss before you get overwhelmed, was a lot more interesting than "dodge big telegraphed aoe, then dodge big telegraphed donut aoe, repeat".

The problem was that after 3 expansions where our potency numbers got bigger and bigger the boss simply fell over before the fight even really started.

[Jojoya]

Look at at the reworked dungeons to be able to work with Trusts. Most of those bosses were extremely dumbed down. Copperbell mines is the big one that was changed almost completely in terms of boss mechanics for each fight.

I can't agree that they've all been dumbed down (maybe the second boss in Stone Vigil since you no longer have the cannons to worry about). Most are more difficult now you can't just stand still and tunnel a boss down even if they lack some of the creativity of the original encounters. I see people die or come close on the Copperbell boss fights where I had never seen that happen in the past.

If you're referring to the lack of creativity in the encounter design and not difficulty, that I have no problem agreeing with.

[Deveryn]

Gaius sure as hell wasn't dumbed down

[Packetdancer]

Yes yes, the mythical blind quadriplegic 150-year-old Maasai grandmother with a 5kbps internet connection for whom all MSQ content must be designed around.

I've never met a disabled person who plays this game and claims the MSQ would be impossible if they added a sprinkle of gameplay engagement.

A friend of mine had severe nerve damage to his hands, sustained during his military service; it made it incredibly difficult for him to type coherently, much less play games at a high level of effectiveness. He didn't complain that games needed to be easier, but he also couldn't entirely conceal how unhappy it made him to not be able to play alongside his friends. Between gaming alongside him, and having a friend who was largely deaf (and thus found it frustrating when the only clue to a mechanic in a game was an audio cue), I found my approach to game design changing.

Sadly, this was well after I'd left the industry professionally (crunch time and ever-present background sexism did not make for my favorite work environment), but I still do game dev in my spare time, and the lessons I took from watching what they found troublesome in games have absolutely impacted how I design things.

And here's the thing: accessibility doesn't have to mean simplicity. SQEX seems to be treating it that way, unfortunately, but that's hardly a requirement.

As an example, for my friend who had the nerve damage, I started writing a tool that let him bind multiple keys to a single key, meaning he could have—for instance, ~, 1, and 2 all bound to the same action, so that if his hand seized up, he could still hit the action he meant to. It didn't mean that the game had to be made easier, it just meant it needed to be accessible to him.

For the mostly-deaf friend, I made an add-on for a game which hooked the audio playback and had a table of audio cues; if it played a specific audio cue, the add-on would put a text description on screen. That didn't make the game any easier—the on-screen text wasn't anything more than someone who could hear properly would be able to tell for themselves by just, y'know, hearing the audio cue—but it made the content more accessible to her.

And while this isn't something I ever had to write an add-on for, I do know of folks who have vision problems, who in this game find the Ivalice raids—which have a lot of audio cues associated with mechanics—easier than others, precisely because of those audio cues. Or find Leviathan EX easier than some extremes because the water-spout noise will be played in a spatially appropriate manner, meaning you can react to where it is just by the audio.

Accessibility doesn't mean the game needs to be easier, just that it needs to not actively work against the players.

Unfortunately, this game's accessibility is... somewhat lacking, which means the devs appear to intend simplicity of any combat in the MSQ itself to serve in place of accessibility options. This is not what I'd call ideal, on either side of the equation; I would bet you there are plenty of people who struggle with higher-difficulty content in this game who would love to not struggle with it, if the game would just, y'know, meet them halfway on how it actually functions.

(Or at the very least wouldn't make a savage raid that consisted of red and orange mechanics on an orange and yellow field, with some extra red and orange and yellow thrown in. You don't even have to be vision-impaired—or even colorblind—to feel like that's a recipe for eye-strain.)

And sure, accessibility options wouldn't improve things for every player that might otherwise have issues with more complex mechanics... but the number who it would would be a damn sight more than zero, I promise you.

Unfortunately, that's not where we are; right now, the game's primary accessibility consideration appears to be "very forgiving content in the MSQ". And as long as that's the state of things, it means that any suggestion that the MSQ needs to be made more challenging is likely to be taken by some percentage of the populace as saying "we want you gone", even if that's not the intent... because, unfortunately, that might be the effect. Intent notwithstanding.

[Dzian]

The biggest problem I have with people calling for the MSQs to be made more difficult is that most of these people are not even asking for OPTIONAL harder modes. They want it to be made harder for EVERYONE. One has to wonder why these people feel the need to make things more difficult for everyone. For the few who have come to this thread to put in a word for OPTIONAL harder modes, I can get behind this. It gives those who want more of a challenge an opportunity to have such a challenge while at the same time, allows those of us who might be struggling from time to time with current content to be able to keep playing.

So yeah I do feel it needs to be harder for everyone. As I've said before the difficulty should at least be at a level that gives the story credibity... ultra cataclysmic world ending situation should not be beaten with a proverbial b**** slap.because of how easy it is.

On the flip side everyone who's crying out against it seems to think difficulty is this sheer vertical cliff where there are only 2 levels.. faceroll or brutal savage. There's a massive space in between where they could tune things..

I also feel and I think I said this earlier too. That any time msq content has been considered too difficult. Its never the fact the content is actually difficult and always the fact that the game does a terrible job of telling or teaching players what they are expected to do..

Nearly every quest that has been a road block has been the same.. not difficult just badly explained.

[Eraden]

So yeah I do feel it needs to be harder for everyone. As I've said before the difficulty should at least be at a level that gives the story credibity... ultra cataclysmic world ending situation should not be beaten with a proverbial b**** slap.because of how easy it is.

On the flip side everyone who's crying out against it seems to think difficulty is this sheer vertical cliff where there are only 2 levels.. faceroll or brutal savage. There's a massive space in between where they could tune things..

I also feel and I think I said this earlier too. That any time msq content has been considered too difficult. Its never the fact the content is actually difficult and always the fact that the game does a terrible job of telling or teaching players what they are expected to do..

Nearly every quest that has been a road block has been the same.. not difficult just badly explained.

You are an example of those who I mentioned who simply do not understand the situations of those of us who struggle from time to time on the MSQs because of our conditions. Please understand that for some of us, we really are at our physical limits when we have difficulties and it has very little to do with the game teaching us how to play. Why must these MSQs be tuned higher for everyone? Do you not see that you are operating under a false assumption by assuming that harder content is somehow going to make everyone become better at playing the game? If you really want more challenging content then by all means ask for more optional content made to suit that desire. Please do not try to force those of us who do have occasional difficulties to have to conform to your standards. If I ever find myself struggling while in a group, due to my condition getting the best of me, I will apologize and bow out if the group is not happy with my efforts. I would appreciate not being chased completely away from the core game, however.

[VelKallor]

Why must these MSQs be tuned higher for everyone?

They dont. The tuning is fine as is

If these people want harder content, there are options for them..this is just gatekeeping so only "the worthy" gets to see content. Bear in mind that this "forum" is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 1%..despite their claims "they speak for all players"..which they dont.

Aveyond's comments that Minfilia was "widely disliked" is a classic example of this attitude.

MSQ is fine as is, it is tuned so it can be completed by a wide range of skill levels, it is designed that way because story MSQ content is the BACKBONE of the game..and to be blunt, the MSQ costs a massive amount to create so it would be the height of IDIOCY to tune it so as to exclude players..in a sense this is reminiscent of the kicking and screaming by WOW raiders when LFR was started..'

HOW DARE more people get to see content they pay for..the NERVE, didnt they know this is for "only the worthy?"

Blizzards response?

This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care

I havent laughed that hard in a very long time..and yes, I was there that day.

[vetch]

Unfortunately, that's not where we are; right now, the game's primary accessibility consideration appears to be "very forgiving content in the MSQ". And as long as that's the state of things, it means that any suggestion that the MSQ needs to be made more challenging is likely to be taken by some percentage of the populace as saying "we want you gone", even if that's not the intent... because, unfortunately, that might be the effect. Intent notwithstanding.

Unluckily the viewpoints of "I wanted this to be more difficult because it didn't contain enough pushback and release to give me catharsis" and "I can't play this if it becomes any more difficult" are necessarily opposed. To the former group, suggesting that the MSQ remain easy is suggesting that the MSQ remain boring and disappointing, and it's not inherently malicious toward the latter group to bring it up (no matter how whiny and loud individual people in the first group might get about it).

Also exacerbating the problem is that a majority of the repeatable group combat content added to the game ends up being MSQ content.

[Supersnow845]

They dont. The tuning is fine as is

If these people want harder content, there are options for them..this is just gatekeeping so only "the worthy" gets to see content. Bear in mind that this "forum" is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 1%..despite their claims "they speak for all players"..which they dont.

Aveyond's comments that Minfilia was "widely disliked" is a classic example of this attitude.

MSQ is fine as is, it is tuned so it can be completed by a wide range of skill levels, it is designed that way because story MSQ content is the BACKBONE of the game..and to be blunt, the MSQ costs a massive amount to create so it would be the height of IDIOCY to tune it so as to exclude players..in a sense this is reminiscent of the kicking and screaming by WOW raiders when LFR was started..'

HOW DARE more people get to see content they pay for..the NERVE, didnt they know this is for "only the worthy?"

Blizzards response?



I havent laughed that hard in a very long time..and yes, I was there that day.

So what about the people who are actively turned away from the game because it is in their worlds excessively easy to the point of being unenjoyable, sure this is anecdotal but I have seen more than 5 people turned off the game because crucial lynchpin fights like endsinger, hades and thordran go down because you breathed too hard on them. Are there opinions not relevant to this situation at all. The MSQ just feels so hollow because all these enemies that you have been working towards for dozens of quests just get bowled over before they can even do a full mechanical loop

Again there is a difference between what we currently have and savage difficulty, raidwides hitting a bit harder, vuln stacks being tuned up a bit more, maybe a few more x come ruins or harder execution mechanics like starfall wouldn’t go astray

If these bosses can’t hurt us the entire design of the story comes crashing down

[Sesera]

So what about the people who are actively turned away from the game because it is in their worlds excessively easy to the point of being unenjoyable

So what we increase difficulty and after doing the same dungeons so many time and you start to get bored again we repeat the same until nobody plays anymore?