MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[VelKallor]

I'm really hoping these last two expansions have made it crystal clear to them that artificially propping these zones up with a highly desired weapon instead of making them places that people actually want to go to and do things in is not an effective way at all to future proof their content

Talera, we are in 100% accord...and I hope the devs are looking at doing this.

[TaleraRistain]

Talera, we are in 100% accord...and I hope the devs are looking at doing this.

I don't think the idea of adventure zones is bad at all. They just need to make them worthwhile and retain that worth in continuing to interact with them. Otherwise, they really aren't worth the development time. They stick out like a sore thumb against so much other content in this game that has systems in place within the game itself to keep it relevant. It's a very old school MMO mentality and there was a reason that stopped being the norm.

[Cilia]

Genuinely difficult content (Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate) is there for players who want it. The MSQ should not be designed to kill you; this game's focus is on it's story, whether or not you like a given line, and all content is set to "Easy Mode" by default. Besides which, you don't have a full toolbox below the level cap - and because of that ever growing toolbox, even simple 6.X bosses can be more complex than high difficulty 2.X ones.

Difficult story bosses can be incredibly rewarding (hello pre-nerf Shinryu!) but it's not the wisest course for drawing in and retaining non-hardcore players, and as an MMO there needs to be as wide an audience as possible.

[Absurdity]

The MSQ should not be designed to kill you; this game's focus is on it's story, whether or not you like a given line, and all content is set to "Easy Mode" by default.

Why shouldn't it? Every other mainline Final Fantasy game was designed to kill you. It constantly presented you with challenges to overcome if you wanted to experience more of the story.


I remember regularly getting my ass handed to me when I first played FFX until I sat down and properly learned to use it's systems like the Sphere Grid, different elements and status effects.

[Cilia]

Why shouldn't it? Every other mainline Final Fantasy game was designed to kill you. It constantly presented you with challenges to overcome if you wanted to experience more of the story.


I remember regularly getting my ass handed to me when I first played FFX until I sat down and properly learned to use it's systems like the Sphere Grid, different elements and status effects.

If you make it too difficult you're going to alienate and fail to draw in people who primarily (or only) care about the story. An MMO is different from single player games, in the sense that MMOs require other people to also be good at the game. If other people aren't good (and let's be honest, encountering somebody who's not paying attention or just not good at their job in game is inevitable) you're going to have a hard time clearing content. You have to depend on other people, rather than your own skill (or luck, or patience grinding).

MMOs are different beasts. Even XI, which was / is an old-school MMO with the more grind-heavy mindset that was common of it's time, requires other people to "git gud" for you to have fun. There's a reason that game design went the way of the dodo.

[Tehmon]

If you make it too difficult you're going to alienate and fail to draw in people who primarily (or only) care about the story. An MMO is different from single player games, in the sense that MMOs require other people to also be good at the game. If other people aren't good (and let's be honest, encountering somebody who's not paying attention or just not good at their job in game is inevitable) you're going to have a hard time clearing content. You have to depend on other people, rather than your own skill (or luck, or patience grinding).

MMOs are different beasts. Even XI, which was / is an old-school MMO with the more grind-heavy mindset that was common of it's time, requires other people to "git gud" for you to have fun. There's a reason that game design went the way of the dodo.

Some people argue that if the game increases in challenge (for the MSQ content that is), it will increase the skill of players and motivate them to do and play better, thus also promoting an increased challenge in future content as well. I have no idea how convincing of an argument that is, or how logical and true it is.

I do think there are just some dungeon bosses that miss the mark completely. Aitascope wall-to-wall pulls are more challenging and deadly than any of the dungeon bosses, sans maybe having a full team of newbies against Amon who don't know to hide behind Shiva's ice. And the second boss from Vanaspati is an absolutely joke and a half, as is the first boss from Ktisis. Tower of Babil is not even worth mentioning (outside of Anima's '' follow the target '' attack that always seems to kill a healer).

But then I think there are some great boss designs each expansions as well, EW included. Tower of Zot is quite excellent, and the last boss is lovely and engaging. Granted they don't hit like a truck so you are given the opportunity to fail while dodging their AoE spam, but still, it's fun and feels rewarding when you don't get hit at all. Ra'La on the other hand has pretty easy to dodge mechanics, but if you get even one vuln stack, you are almost as good as dead because Ra'La hits like a truck with everything, especially the team wide, so there is little room for error. The entire Dead Ends is just well executed imo.

So to me there are hits and misses, and there is varying amounts of difficulty, and where that difficulty stems from (hard-hitting attacks, new unclear mechanics or AoE spam).

[Kamatsu]

Some people argue that if the game increases in challenge (for the MSQ content that is), it will increase the skill of players and motivate them to do and play better, thus also promoting an increased challenge in future content as well. I have no idea how convincing of an argument that is, or how logical and true it is.

It's not true, as has been shown in the past in other games which have tried this. Other games have ramped up the difficulty, with that mindset that by doing so it'll motivate players to get better.... and all they ended up doing was chasing players away.

Classic recent example was Guild Wars to and the lead up to, and the launch of it's 1st expansion. It's Living World (MSQ) content leading up to the expansion got harder as it was introduced, and there were increasing complaints from players over this. However these complaints were drowned out by the small, but extreme vocal, minority of players who were urging ANet to go harder. Then the expansion hit... and it ramped up the difficulty even more than before.

The result? ANet suffered their greatest ever, or since, 6-month loss in revenue as the majority of their player base abandoned the game... the players did NOT get motivated to get better, to better use skills, etc and overcome the increased challenges. The players hit the brick wall of increased difficulty and left the game. It was so bad that for the 1st time there were threads on both the official forums and GW2 reddit asking where players were... ppl were trying to do content in the either the expansion or the base game and seeing nobody around. ANet had to do a hard 180&, nerf the hell out of the expansion... to stop the players leaving, and their whole studio being shut down by NCSoft (as NCSoft is known to do if/when studio's stop being profitable enough).

Fact is most of the players who would be effected negatively by making the MSQ harder won't 'try harder' or 'play better'... they will take their limited time and money elsewhere. Most of these ppl just want to log in, relax and do the story after a day/week at work... they don't want to be stressed out with a game, challenged or have to watch youtube video guides on how to beat a MSQ dungeon/trial... and if they can't just mash their way through a fight and thus get stuck, they will leave and go play somethign else that doesn't force them to struggle.

[ForteNightshade]

If you make it too difficult you're going to alienate and fail to draw in people who primarily (or only) care about the story. An MMO is different from single player games, in the sense that MMOs require other people to also be good at the game. If other people aren't good (and let's be honest, encountering somebody who's not paying attention or just not good at their job in game is inevitable) you're going to have a hard time clearing content. You have to depend on other people, rather than your own skill (or luck, or patience grinding).

MMOs are different beasts. Even XI, which was / is an old-school MMO with the more grind-heavy mindset that was common of it's time, requires other people to "git gud" for you to have fun. There's a reason that game design went the way of the dodo.

Operative words here is "too difficult". We've reached a point where content is so easy entire roles can be rendered irrelevant and dodging mechanics is more a formality than a requirement. I shouldn't be able to stand in AoE markers and shrug off the damage as though it never happened yet in a good chunk of the MSQ dungeons, I can do precisely that. At the higher levels, healers aren't necessary whatsoever. Whether it be a Warrior, Gunbreaker or even a Dark Knight, all the tanks are capable of surviving pulls by themselves. Only Dark Knight will die to bosses due to it lacking any self-sustain. We have a new dungeon coming out in 6.2 and it'll be a complete faceroll on release. Bosses like Ozma, Diabolos or even pre-nerfed Cid were never supremely hard. They could simply kill people who weren't paying attention. Nowadays, Cid is so pathetic two whole alliances can fail both the stack mechanic and dropping the bleed puddles without wiping the raid. You literally have to actively try to fail otherwise it's downright impossible.

There's a balance between being too difficult for people who only care about story and being so comically easy a toddler could complete most of it.

[vetch]

If you make it too difficult you're going to alienate and fail to draw in people who primarily (or only) care about the story.

Contrariwise, if you make it too easy you're going to alienate people who don't want to be bored while playing. This is why single-player games often have difficulty settings.

If other people aren't good (and let's be honest, encountering somebody who's not paying attention or just not good at their job in game is inevitable) you're going to have a hard time clearing content.

If by 'have a hard time' you mean 'leave, do something else for 30 minutes, and then requeue to try and get someone who's not *so* bad that they can't finish an MSQ dungeon within a 90-minute lockout'.

MMOs are different beasts. Even XI, which was / is an old-school MMO with the more grind-heavy mindset that was common of it's time, requires other people to "git gud" for you to have fun. There's a reason that game design went the way of the dodo.

Yes. The reason is because that type of MMO design brings in merely 'some profit' instead of 'loads and loads of profit'. It's not that there's no demand for the FF11 style. People still play FF11.

[ForteNightshade]

Genuinely difficult content (Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate) is there for players who want it. The MSQ should not be designed to kill you; this game's focus is on it's story, whether or not you like a given line, and all content is set to "Easy Mode" by default. Besides which, you don't have a full toolbox below the level cap - and because of that ever growing toolbox, even simple 6.X bosses can be more complex than high difficulty 2.X ones.

Difficult story bosses can be incredibly rewarding (hello pre-nerf Shinryu!) but it's not the wisest course for drawing in and retaining non-hardcore players, and as an MMO there needs to be as wide an audience as possible.

First and foremost, Shinryu was never nerfed. I really don't know why this keeps being mentioned. Trial bosses simply don't have an ilvl sync, thereby making them gradually easier as the expansion carries on. By the end of Stormblood, we were 120 ilvls over him. Naturally, Shinryu is going to melt by then.

Secondly, as Absurdity noted above. Why should the MSQ content be a toothless participation award? It certainly doesn't need to be expressively difficult but at the same time doesn't need to be a walk in the park that's near impossible to fail. Case in point, I just did Castrum Abania with a friend to help them level. I healed a grand total of seven times the entire dungeon. Of those seven heals, less than five were even necessary. The mobs and bosses alike utterly melted. The tank even did the huge pull at the end and I never needed to touch them once. Between Holy stuns and their paltry health, they were almost dead by the time stun immunity kicked in. This is the last dungeon before the big boss and that's the experience players get?

No mainline FF has ever been hard but they've certainly had bosses able to kill you. That's rarely the case in FFXIV outside of first time experiences. Even if you get a new player, the content is easy enough you can carry them through without a problem.