LIVE Letter Regarding DRG & AST Postponed Reworks

[Aco505]

DRG and AST definitely needing their actions-per-minute fixed urgently.

So no, they're far from "perfect" They suffer button bloat like a lot of DPS do currently.

DRG is not a job that suffers from button bloat. It is actually one of the jobs with the least amount of actions in the hotbars, as laid out in this post: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

This game is supposed to last ten more years give or take, what can they feasibly do with DRG in the next expansion that won’t completely mess up a current system it has, merging litany and sight and giving stardiver some more potency won’t be enough for even one more expansion let alone 3 to 4, I don’t think anyone wants to give DRG the SMN treatment but it also shouldn’t fall into the RDM trap where every expansion basically amounts to “new potencies and another finisher on top of your other 4 finishers”

This applies to almost every single job in the game, what can you add to GNB in the next expansion? It could get an extra gauge, but where do you place the new buttons? What about NIN, DRK? Even RPR is at the door of the button bloat issue because it has 6 actions that are exclusively used for AoE. It is AoE duplicates that bloats the jobs, of which DRG doesn't suffer from because the only difference between single and multi target scenarios is the weaponskill string employed.

Agree or disagree you can’t deny the merits of it, we can already see cracks forming in EW where systems stacked on systems bloats the job in strange ways, we had to turn our old gauge into a trait to make way for a new gauge that functionally does nothing, are we just going to continue to do that for 4 more expansions, something has to give and it’s going to give soon the way it’s going

As much as the established playerbase whines about it, slight tweaks around the edges and potency buffs don’t attract new people to a job

And that’s kinda my point, EW didn’t really do anything with DRG, it was already close to what it currently is in ShB we just got some potency tweaks around the edge and a functionally pointless gauge extension

The addition of scales and Wyrmwind Thrust has been extremely positive for DRG by allowing an interaction between GCDs and oGCDs and in fact should be expanded upon, as well as having a 3rd scale while maintaining the WWT cost of two. Therefore, I don't think statements about the new gauge doing "nothing" or being "pointless" hold value.

Turning BotD into a trait was necessary because DRG was the only job that lost everything if the gauge dropped (unlike BLM polyglot stacks, for example), which was not so uncommon wherever a cut scene was present (it happened even in casual situations such as treasure map dungeons). They could have chosen to keep it and allow the eyes not to fall, but without further interaction, the proper thing to do was to just make it permanent.

Another question is if we want to make the job more engaging, to which I agree. However, jobs should not be reworked just to make more people play them. How many people don't tackle BLM because they think it's hard? Let's not say here that DRG is so hard that many people opt not to play it when it's one of the simplest jobs in the game and actually needs an increase in skill ceiling (as well as a lower floor if so desired). Reworks should appeal to new, casual and veteran users alike.

And to make it clear: no one is saying that the job should not be reworked, but that it should be done at the end/beginning of an expansion and with player feedback taken into account. People are worried precisely because this has not been the case recently.

Correct the job is fine right now but there is functionally nothing that can be done to it in the future, the job is far too static and far too rigid, something has to give and it’s going to give soon, a job can’t stay in its current form forever no matter how much you like it

Not all jobs have to be the same. DRG is unique by being the only melee DPS centered around oGCDs. As for the tight usage of abilities, NIN for example is quite similar in this regard, where things must be used on strict cooldown, but with added layers of complexity in specific areas, yet I don't see complaints about how rigidity can affect NIN. DRG is more complex positional-wise, for instance. Each job could expand on the areas that might be lacking, but let's not strip them of their uniqueness, as was the case for NIN recently due to the TA change.

There's zero functional reason for High Jump and Mirage Dive to be a separate button.

They should have never become the same button because they did it wrong: initially they made it change instantly, and when feedback was given, they slapped a 1s recast on MD, making double weaving HJ and MD extremely tight, as difficult as double weaving jumps before the animation lock was shortened. Either they reduce the recast to 0.5 or 0.8 (to match the animation lock of HJ) or they move MD back to its own button. Or better yet, allow the option to choose which to do. This rigidity with MD due to it being the same button can cause plenty of problems in encounters, with Dragonsong's Reprise being the most recent one.

MD has to stay as an independent button so that the ability is as flexible as possible.

I mostly agree with the rest of what you say though, but I do think the job is very well designed and flows smoothly. Sure, it can still get polished and refined, but if DRG needs a rework, then so do most jobs, starting with BLM. BLM is said to be very well designed, yet it has stayed mostly the same for several expansions, with mostly QoL and little things added each time, just like DRG. How come this job doesn't need a rework? Can it actually get something in 7.0 without taking anything away?

Because you aren’t the only person who square is designing for, they need to attract more people to the job in the future and leaving every job in a static “well we can’t change anything so you get potency upgrades every expansion” is the absolute death keel for design creativity

In every single one of these threads nobody has ever explained to me a viable expansion to DRG’s combo they could put in that wouldn’t break the job, it’s always just “the jobs fine”, yes but fine isn’t going to cut the mustard because it has to be expanded upon every expansion, I’d rather a full rework than 10 years of potency upgrades or 10 years of “delete stardiver because it doesn’t fit, next expansion out stardiver by a different name back in” which is about the only options DRG has left right now

Perhaps you haven't checked all the threads, because I have talked plenty about DRG in threads and posts such as this one: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...66#post6008566

You can search my post history in the forums, and you will see how I provide examples about what could be added to the job. I don't claim to be a theorycrafter with the absolute truth or best ideas, not at all, but I have spent a fair amount of time trying to provide feedback on the matter as a person that mains the job and plays it at higher level.

DRG still has room for additions for at least one more expansion. However, the same could be said for most jobs in the game, as I have already mentioned.

The job needs more interaction between GCDs and oGCDs, both within and between each category, as well as extra interaction with Life of the Dragon windows and GCDs to make the kit more cohesive. Another, albeit minor, problem to be addressed is the inherent slow drift associated to Geirskogul when exiting LotD due to it being unable to be queued.

Something they could do is allow the 5th positional hit in the combo to turn into a new weaponskill that gives some kind of resource similar to MNK Nadi: you choose which 5th to use (WT would turn into Drachenlance and FnC into Gnash and Lash only in that position, they stay the same when they're in 4th position), and each gives a different resource that when combined allow you to use a specific attack depending on the combination or give you some kind of buff that changes/enhances specific GCDs/oGCDs.

Another example would be to let Dragonfire Dive unlock a stronger attack (perhaps a GCD with range?) like Bunshin does with Phantom Kamaitachi.

What I really don't want is for LotD (and DRG in general) to be turned into Enshroud 2.0 or a RPR with oGCDs, because that's usually the direction that some suggestions go to. It is not in our interest to be RPR 2.0 and we should strive to preserve the job's uniqueness.

[Shurrikhan]

What I really don't want is for LotD (and DRG in general) to be turned into Enshroud 2.0 or a RPR with oGCDs

If the difference between "LotD" and "DRG-Enshroud" is, as you've posited in the thread you linked, whether the state ends after you've used the 3 Nostrand casts and Stardiver --and the only difference between that and the current version is that you don't lose the ability to queue the post-LotD Gierskogul-- I have to wonder why that would matter.

If LotD actually had some passive benefit over its duration or returned to a HW-BotD-like mechanic whereby you want to maintain it as long as would allow you to spend the absolute minimum amount of duration/resource on your final Nostrand cast, I could see why you'd want to protect LotD's duration, but... LotD has no benefits outside of access to Nostrand. (Which, as I mentioned there, would benefit DRG's flow, through the ability to queue the follow Geirskogul, if you just had LotD end after it has consumed all its benefits.)

Another example would be to let Dragonfire Dive unlock a stronger attack (perhaps a GCD with range?) like Bunshin does with Phantom Kamaitachi.

Not against this, but wouldn't this ultimately just feel like Mirage BiggerDragon? Is there a way this could be used, in DRG's wider context, to improve kit interaction, or add theme/cohesion to surrounding systems?

While secondary actions (B unlocked by A during A's CD, such that B requires no additional buttons) do improve button efficiency and increase APM, it would seem a waste to have no further benefit there.

Something they could do is allow the 5th positional hit in the combo to turn into a new weaponskill that gives some kind of resource similar to MNK Nadi: you choose which 5th to use (WT would turn into Drachenlance and FnC into Gnash and Lash only in that position, they stay the same when they're in 4th position), and each gives a different resource that when combined allow you to use a specific attack depending on the combination or give you some kind of buff that changes/enhances specific GCDs/oGCDs.

This sounds pretty damn neat. More animation variance, and finally they'd look like they deserve the added 5th position punch of Lance Mastery II.

[Aco505]

If the difference between "LotD" and "DRG-Enshroud" is, as you've posited in the thread you linked, whether the state ends after you've used the 3 Nostrand casts and Stardiver --and the only difference between that and the current version is that you don't lose the ability to queue the post-LotD Gierskogul-- I have to wonder why that would matter.

If LotD actually had some passive benefit over its duration or returned to a HW-BotD-like mechanic whereby you want to maintain it as long as would allow you to spend the absolute minimum amount of duration/resource on your final Nostrand cast, I could see why you'd want to protect LotD's duration, but... LotD has no benefits outside of access to Nostrand. (Which, as I mentioned there, would benefit DRG's flow, through the ability to queue the follow Geirskogul, if you just had LotD end after it has consumed all its benefits.)

Having LotD end right after using the 3rd NAS is Enshroud 2.0 and that is bad because instead of working with LotD's timer in some way, this would just make it RPR 2.0. I can easily picture us having the ability to pool 4 eyes or the like for a double LotD in a row. At that moment, you wonder what's the difference between jobs besides the animations.

GSK being unqueueable could be fixed by removing its cooldown, but allowing it to be used only with two eyes. Something would have to be given to DRG so that the opener is not missing a button, but that could ease rigidity (as well as a longer Litany), since the only oGCD that would require hard use on cooldown would be HJ. As long as they increase the skill ceiling somewhere else, I'd be fine with this.

Another option would be to have some use to the LotD timer in a similar way to Enochian or old GSK in Heavensward, where it consumed the BotD timer that you built with positionals.

However, yes, LotD should have more interaction with the rest of the kit. It could buff our GCDs, give them a different animation, whatever. I want our kit to evolve, not turn into a mechanic or gauge that is almost a copy of another job, and RPR tends to be the main comparison.

These are just some ideas, I'm sure there could be better ones, but anything that makes LotD/DRG a copy of Enshroud/RPR or any other job is going to reduce the uniqueness of DRG.

Not against this, but wouldn't this ultimately just feel like Mirage BiggerDragon? Is there a way this could be used, in DRG's wider context, to improve kit interaction, or add theme/cohesion to surrounding systems?

While secondary actions (B unlocked by A during A's CD, such that B requires no additional buttons) do improve button efficiency and increase APM, it would seem a waste to have no further benefit there.

Just an idea, could be something else like, for example, an oGCD combo: Dragonfire Dive increases the potency of/modifies a specific oGCD. It could also grant two scales, or if following my suggestion of turning Life Surge into a weaponskill a la Sonic Break/Soul Slice with two charges that grant a scale, DFD could return one or two of these charges, increasing the use of this action during bursts and creating more GCD/oGCD interaction.

My point is that DFD feels good aesthetically but weak otherwise for a 120s capstone ability. It has to hit harder and/or have a role of its own.

[Shurrikhan]

Having LotD end right after using the 3rd NAS is Enshroud 2.0 and that is bad because instead of working with LotD's timer in some way, this would just make it RPR 2.0.

You'd still need it to be held for Stardiver (i.e., until one has consumed ALL the benefits of LotD) regardless, but so long as those benefits are more than just the 3 NAS and 1 Stardiver, then sure, having a fixed duration would make sense. Otherwise, though, it's just an awkward obfuscation.

Personally, I'd probably most enjoy returning to the HW BotD design there.

My point is that DFD feels good aesthetically but weak otherwise for a 120s capstone ability. It has to hit harder and/or have a role of its own.

It's not particularly weak for a level 50 skill, though, which does indeed give good reason to simply augment it later via a trait or follow-up skill.

my suggestion of turning Life Surge into a weaponskill

Personally, I much prefer that Life Surge is not something we hit on CD and has had, depending on SkS tiers, different optimal attachments by which to get the most bonus value per average minute out of the skill, so I'm not fond of that idea, especially as I don't think DRG's APM is remotely excessive and replacing oGCDs with GCDs would reduce APM.

I'd be cool with LS granting a bonus Scale, especially if Scales were increased only to a max of 3 such that one still has to be mindful of the scales to be generated within a LS-using combo, but I like it being a slightly less straightforward oGCD, and would prefer its CD be tuned to provide it more options in practice across viable SkS tiers.

That said, because normal LS may want to be used later in the opener than DFD, having DFD grant a charge of LS might be a bit awkward. On the other hand, if DFD were empowered by Scale-granting hits or Dragon weaponskills or the like, up to a point, and thus already had reason to be delayed, it'd have less conflict, but DFD would also feel less responsive, etc., etc., so it may be better just to leave burstyjob's burstyskill without prior attachments/constraints, be they direct or indirect.