Dark Knight Megathread

[baklava151]

Speaking of all that, I'm sure the devs are wary of making TBN DPS positive, but would it be a huge deal to add a +10 or even +20 Blood gain to it if it pops? You still have to be careful using it otherwise you waste an Edge trying to gain such a small amount of blood, but it's still a nice bit of extra reward for timing it right.

[Kalaam]

I wouldn't say best expansion for DRK since heavensward, the class still feels incredibly barebone to me. The only unique thing it has being TBN risk/reward but it is so little it's not as satisfying as it was before.

[Archwizard]

Speaking of all that, I'm sure the devs are wary of making TBN DPS positive, but would it be a huge deal to add a +10 or even +20 Blood gain to it if it pops? You still have to be careful using it otherwise you waste an Edge trying to gain such a small amount of blood, but it's still a nice bit of extra reward for timing it right.

I think you're missing the point though.

The issue there isn't "potentially wasting an Edge if you're too cautious with TBN", it's "will people abuse TBN for the sake of dealing damage?"

Because TBN is the only on-demand that has a direct impact on DPS. No matter what you do, you cannot game BW/HS/HoC into damage (nor against damage) because they're completely divorced from it. TBN impacts DPS output, but it's not made to be a damage skill – this is why it's only neutral.

You create even a slight DPS gain for an on-demand, and that adds up over time as essentially a rotational skill equivalent to the DPS gain of a positional. You're not encouraged to use TBN when you see a big hit coming, you're encouraged to seek big hits to burst TBN on cooldown.

(And in such a case, unless you're exceeding 12000 MP gain per minute, Edge and Flood become a DPS loss without DA. And we don't even have the MP gain right now to utilize its shorter cooldown; considering those big hits aren't hard to find, the proper use of TBN involves knowing how to prioritize them.)

You have to remember that "a bit of extra reward" is literally just a difference of personal mindset from "a requirement for optimal output that you're penalized for not utilizing."

[Lyth]

...

MP and Blood both have a potency value attached.

The difficulty with short recast mitigation carrying even marginal dps benefits is that players start using them on recast. We saw this in Stormblood when Sheltron gave MP on block along with a Swipe proc. It also meant that many PLD players felt like Intervention was a waste. You do see outlier cases like Vengeance, but I suppose the 'reasoning' (as much as I dislike it) is that it's on a much longer recast.

The one solution that hasn't been looked at yet is rewarding players for using short recasts on specific boss actions, like red arrow tankbuster attacks. You could either give a special dps proc off of it, or unlock a 'counter attack' similar to Chelonian Gate or Cold Fog. That eliminates the pressure to use the ability on recast, while giving tank damage dealing a bit of extra flavor to distinguish it from melee dps.

[baklava151]

I think you're missing the point though.

The issue there isn't "potentially wasting an Edge if you're too cautious with TBN", it's "will people abuse TBN for the sake of dealing damage?"

Because TBN is the only on-demand that has a direct impact on DPS. No matter what you do, you cannot game BW/HS/HoC into damage (nor against damage) because they're completely divorced from it. TBN impacts DPS output, but it's not made to be a damage skill – this is why it's only neutral.

You create even a slight DPS gain for an on-demand, and that adds up over time as essentially a rotational skill equivalent to the DPS gain of a positional. You're not encouraged to use TBN when you see a big hit coming, you're encouraged to seek big hits to burst TBN on cooldown.

(And in such a case, unless you're exceeding 12000 MP gain per minute, Edge and Flood become a DPS loss without DA. And we don't even have the MP gain right now to utilize its shorter cooldown; considering those big hits aren't hard to find, the proper use of TBN involves knowing how to prioritize them.)

You have to remember that "a bit of extra reward" is literally just a difference of personal mindset from "a requirement for optimal output that you're penalized for not utilizing."

I agree people would try to optimize the hell out of it, that's where I'm trying to figure out if the risk balances out the reward in this case and would prevent people from spamming TBN when they can. Ultimately though it's probably not a can of worms worth opening so I won't die on that hill

MP and Blood both have a potency value attached.

The difficulty with short recast mitigation carrying even marginal dps benefits is that players start using them on recast. We saw this in Stormblood when Sheltron gave MP on block along with a Swipe proc. It also meant that many PLD players felt like Intervention was a waste. You do see outlier cases like Vengeance, but I suppose the 'reasoning' (as much as I dislike it) is that it's on a much longer recast.

I was comparing TBN to SAM's Third Eye and Vengeance to see why those could be a DPS gain, I think the other factor is that neither of those are targetable like TBN which lessens the opportunities to use them (and of course SAM not being a tank isn't getting hit by autos and TBs).

The one solution that hasn't been looked at yet is rewarding players for using short recasts on specific boss actions, like red arrow tankbuster attacks. You could either give a special dps proc off of it, or unlock a 'counter attack' similar to Chelonian Gate or Cold Fog. That eliminates the pressure to use the ability on recast, while giving tank damage dealing a bit of extra flavor to distinguish it from melee dps.

Could be a cool idea

[Lyth]

It's a fair point.

You know what? We should just ask the dev team at the next Q+A what their official philosophy is on it, rather than speculating.

[Oizen]

I'm always lost when people are complaining about how many removed mechanics Dark Knight has been through, and then turn around and beg for them to remove more mechanics from Dark Knight.

[Archwizard]

Now, with regards to the greater TBN argument, my take:

Heart of Corundum and Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash can be used every 25 seconds.
The resources for Holy Sheltron/Intervention/Cover can be generated about every ~22.5 seconds, are only usable on other defensive utilities, and can be stored as charges for use up to twice in a row.
The resources for TBN can be stored for 3 casts... but it still has the hard CD of 15 seconds minimum between uses, a soft CD through its MP generation that means you will not have the resources to consistently use it every 15 seconds so the "shorter cooldown" is largely theoretical, and shares resources with damage skills that are a necessary part of our rotation so that failure to use TBN efficiently results in a damage penalty. Functionally, it's the worst of both worlds.

Now, on a design front, there are easier ways to accomplish having TBN be a more versatile defensive tool without resorting to the competing MP resource -- for instance, just giving it charges not unlike Oblation in its own kit or, for no other reason than proof of concept, Holy Sheltron.
The primary reason to maintain the competing MP resource is to preserve the illusion of a "counterattack" element, while also maintaining damage neutrality. However, this comes at the expense of the versatility of our MP-based toolkit: while Heavensward and Stormblood provided a small plethora of recastable utility spells and allowed MP to be used on Dark Arts, Shadowbringers and Endwalker have limited the job only to a pair of redundant oGCD options as alternative uses for MP, which cannot be altered without making our already bland DPS toolkit even more braindead. This is in spite of the job being designed and billed as the "magical tank" and progressively losing its magic, so that our main magical element is... what, Living Shadow?

Is this the same as saying TBN is at fault for our kit as it is? No, you can't blame the piece of gum for holding back the dam. As has been pointed out many times, TBN itself was concurrent with several MP-based skills in Stormblood, though its practicality at the time is another matter entirely since it was a rather different skill back then and the devs clearly moved on from that design for one reason or another.
However, do I think preserving the current design of TBN provides an obstacle for designs to expand the kit further? Yes. Especially when points of contention include DRK's lack of sustainability or utility -- things taken away with the shift in MP skills in ShB -- or the blandness of its damage toolkit which hangs heavily on its pool of oGCDs. Any new MP skill has to be weighed against the DPS value of both TBN and the Darkside skills and, as we've already discussed, any shift in Dark Arts' interaction has to consider the potential to abuse TBN for damage gain beyond the scope of its intent as a defensive tool, which I believe was one of its failings in Stormblood when it provided Blood Gauge.

In short, as of right now, TBN is designed to only account for Edge and Flood. Forever. That's... pretty limiting.

I would also point out that there are ways to preserve damage neutrality AND maintain the counterattack without resorting to having TBN on the same resource as a pair of damage skills. For instance, in PvP we see the option to have Dark Arts negate an HP cost on a damage skill that is otherwise a part of the rotation, effectively increasing the job's sustainability. There are creative ways you can use to reflect that in PvE, including but not limited to just copying the PvP interaction wholesale.

On the other hand, whether DRK needs to preserve the counterattack element in any theoretical future iterations is another issue entirely. One could argue that it serves to further inflate the myriad themes of the kit while diminishing each to make room, not unlike SMN's previous positions both as DoT and Pet Mage, and that such a position itself was largely outmoded with the change in DRK's kit come Shadowbringers and the removal of, say, Dark Dance/Reprisal and Blood Price.
Personally I could see either argument there, especially when I feel like GNB is a job that flounders from lack of its own distinctive tanking niche, though "trading elements between tanks to give them to tanks who might be better served from them (either thematically or mechanically)" is apparently a taboo suggestion. But, flipside, counterattacking is a core part of making TBN unique so, whatever.

[Kalaam]

If the proc given by TBN breaking gave benefits other than damage (such as the next Edge/Flood applying a debuff) it'd make it rewarding without throwing the damage balance out of wack.

[baklava151]

Is this the same as saying TBN is at fault for our kit as it is? No, you can't blame the piece of gum for holding back the dam. As has been pointed out many times, TBN itself was concurrent with several MP-based skills in Stormblood, though its practicality at the time is another matter entirely since it was a rather different skill back then and the devs clearly moved on from that design for one reason or another.
However, do I think preserving the current design of TBN provides an obstacle for designs to expand the kit further? Yes. Especially when points of contention include DRK's lack of sustainability or utility -- things taken away with the shift in MP skills in ShB -- or the blandness of its damage toolkit which hangs heavily on its pool of oGCDs. Any new MP skill has to be weighed against the DPS value of both TBN and the Darkside skills and, as we've already discussed, any shift in Dark Arts' interaction has to consider the potential to abuse TBN for damage gain beyond the scope of its intent as a defensive tool, which I believe was one of its failings in Stormblood when it provided Blood Gauge.

In short, as of right now, TBN is designed to only account for Edge and Flood. Forever. That's... pretty limiting.

I don't think it's TBN that's necessarily the limiting factor in this case, if we're talking about adding more MP spenders to spice up the kit then it's more how to make sure Edge and the new MP spender don't have a clear winner in every situation. Two ways I can think of is a) new spender does more damage but doesn't add Darkside and b) new spender has a CD. I think it'd be possible to add both of those with a 3K MP cost and they'd fit in perfectly fine with TBN. I can't think of a reason for them not to cost 3K MP but if they do need to then limit Dark Arts to only working on Edge/Flood.