Dark Knight Megathread

[RyuDragnier]

Ppl that ask for reworks or rework the job themselfs always keep the oGCD nature of the job, they just make it cohesive and add actual mechanics you care of to the gameplay like how the job use to be, extra combos or better say GCD diversity is for kill the dull soul eater combo spam that is visually boring.

It's also because we're the only tank with a single GCD combo. PLD has Goring Blade and Royal Authority combos, GNB has Solid Barrel and Gnashing Fang combos, WAR has Storm's Path and Storm's Eye combos. DRK only has Souleater, we're just asking for a second GCD combo so we're less boring on that front when everything is down.

[baklava151]

It's also because we're the only tank with a single GCD combo. PLD has Goring Blade and Royal Authority combos, GNB has Solid Barrel and Gnashing Fang combos, WAR has Storm's Path and Storm's Eye combos. DRK only has Souleater, we're just asking for a second GCD combo so we're less boring on that front when everything is down.

I've been bouncing around the idea in my head of the second combo being used for Darkside maintenance but it would need something else to not strictly be a Storm's Path copy. Having Blood drain Darkside like you said below might be one answer though to make it more active.

[Lyth]

And I think that's something very reasonable to ask for, and could easily be expanded on without rebuilding the entire job from scratch.

I think some people just demand reworks because they worry that if DRK is not seen to have issues, then they won't have anything to talk about on the forums. It doesn't matter how well you fix the job and how content the players are, they'll still be demanding that you rework the rework.

[RyuDragnier]

Removing the MP cost from TBN merely makes it so that it's on par with other defensives without having to sacrifice potential damage to use it. Besides, they can always add job identity and kit synergy in other ways. They could:

A. Bring back Dark Arts in a Eukrasia form on a charge system that alters what things do, such as (if they make Oblation available at level 45) using DA on Oblation just changes it to Dark Mind, sacrificing the physical defense portion for the heavy magic defense. Or making it so using it on Unmend changes it to Abyssal Drain.

B. Make it so using Blood moves requires the Darkside buff to be up, but using a Blood move drains your Darkside buff by 15s per use, so instead of being some passive that may as well not exist, it works with your kit. Combine with removing TBN's MP cost, and our MP ends up being used to keep Darkside up instead of just used whenever possible. So a Delirium use would essentially be -45s on Darkside, so you're using 1-2 Edges in that Delirium burst to avoid losing Darkside.

C. Combine the above two.

[Shurrikhan]

...

Oh, we could certainly make MP matter in other ways. It's just that for the time being, TBN is the only difference between having "MP" and "3 (Accelerable) Edge/Flood charges".

[Kalaam]

The removal of delirium as a finisher and Power Slash for ennmity really stripped DRK in GCD.
Could have just kept Power Slash as the damage combo and soul eater for healing.

[Lyth]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example). I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line. Alternatively, they could just have your Edge/Flood hits raise the timer on your next LS duration up from 0 to some cap, such that you're required to land a certain number of Edge strikes over 2 minutes to maximize its value.

The difficulty with designing gauge spenders in general is that you can really only have one on-demand gauge spender per gauge (with a single target and AoE variant). The instant that you add an additional one, whichever action is mathematically better gets used exclusively. The only way around this is to have a cooldown timer attached (i.e. LS is a more valuable use of Blood than Bloodspiller when the cooldown is up). So you can't really have a second combo that is gated by MP or Blood.

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

[baklava151]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example). I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line.

I can see that happening. I'd rather it not and they do more with Darkside instead but it wouldn't surprise me.

The difficulty with designing gauge spenders in general is that you can really only have one on-demand gauge spender per gauge (with a single target and AoE variant). The instant that you add an additional one, whichever action is mathematically better gets used exclusively. The only way around this is to have a cooldown timer attached (i.e. LS is a more valuable use of Blood than Bloodspiller when the cooldown is up). So you can't really have a second combo that is gated by MP or Blood.

I think there are a few ways to tackle that other than CDs. Looking at SAM back in ShB, iirc Seigan was better than Shinten for its Kenki cost, but had to be procced off Third Eye first. On DRK I think you could have something work where you have a combo finisher that costs MP but adds to the Darkside timer, and it wouldn't conflict with Edge of Shadow assuming Edge is also changed to not give Darkside.

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

I could possibly get on board with this

[RyuDragnier]

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

[Shurrikhan]

I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line.

It's vestigial already. How many of us even bother to include our Darkside timer visibly in our UI?

Alternatively, they could just have your Edge/Flood hits raise the timer on your next LS duration up from 0 to some cap, such that you're required to land a certain number of Edge strikes over 2 minutes to maximize its value.

I'm all for added flexibility, but that'd require that this stands in place of LS's full-length, rigid cooldown.

In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

I'm not necessarily a fan of just swapping over to a carbon copied mechanic of a different job.

Yes, there's scarcely any way to handle a second combo that hasn't been done before (CDed spender, DoT, self-buff, or unlocked via 2-charge spender), but what makes Reaper particularly apt save for just being the other "edgy" one?

Let's not assume that copying a different job would necessarily produce a better DRK, or even that difference from the existing or its earlier precedents necessarily produces improvement. What specifically do we want from this second combo producible by bankable oGCD spenders? Why is it the best idea ("the answer"), rather than just... a possible option?

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

This, though, should not be an issue. We shouldn't be using TBN where it won't break, and any break gives Edge. The penalty for failure, then, is slightly increased (not that we couldn't also compensate for that somewhat, especially as warranted by the deepened penalty), but proper performance would still cost one nothing so long as we just let the resulting free Edge/Flood buff (call it "Black Blade" or whatnot) stack or give it some further bonus for being spent earlier (such that we wouldn't want to stack it anyways).