Dark Knight Megathread

[Archwizard]

Speaking of all that, I'm sure the devs are wary of making TBN DPS positive, but would it be a huge deal to add a +10 or even +20 Blood gain to it if it pops? You still have to be careful using it otherwise you waste an Edge trying to gain such a small amount of blood, but it's still a nice bit of extra reward for timing it right.

I think you're missing the point though.

The issue there isn't "potentially wasting an Edge if you're too cautious with TBN", it's "will people abuse TBN for the sake of dealing damage?"

Because TBN is the only on-demand that has a direct impact on DPS. No matter what you do, you cannot game BW/HS/HoC into damage (nor against damage) because they're completely divorced from it. TBN impacts DPS output, but it's not made to be a damage skill – this is why it's only neutral.

You create even a slight DPS gain for an on-demand, and that adds up over time as essentially a rotational skill equivalent to the DPS gain of a positional. You're not encouraged to use TBN when you see a big hit coming, you're encouraged to seek big hits to burst TBN on cooldown.

(And in such a case, unless you're exceeding 12000 MP gain per minute, Edge and Flood become a DPS loss without DA. And we don't even have the MP gain right now to utilize its shorter cooldown; considering those big hits aren't hard to find, the proper use of TBN involves knowing how to prioritize them.)

You have to remember that "a bit of extra reward" is literally just a difference of personal mindset from "a requirement for optimal output that you're penalized for not utilizing."

[baklava151]

I think you're missing the point though.

The issue there isn't "potentially wasting an Edge if you're too cautious with TBN", it's "will people abuse TBN for the sake of dealing damage?"

Because TBN is the only on-demand that has a direct impact on DPS. No matter what you do, you cannot game BW/HS/HoC into damage (nor against damage) because they're completely divorced from it. TBN impacts DPS output, but it's not made to be a damage skill – this is why it's only neutral.

You create even a slight DPS gain for an on-demand, and that adds up over time as essentially a rotational skill equivalent to the DPS gain of a positional. You're not encouraged to use TBN when you see a big hit coming, you're encouraged to seek big hits to burst TBN on cooldown.

(And in such a case, unless you're exceeding 12000 MP gain per minute, Edge and Flood become a DPS loss without DA. And we don't even have the MP gain right now to utilize its shorter cooldown; considering those big hits aren't hard to find, the proper use of TBN involves knowing how to prioritize them.)

You have to remember that "a bit of extra reward" is literally just a difference of personal mindset from "a requirement for optimal output that you're penalized for not utilizing."

I agree people would try to optimize the hell out of it, that's where I'm trying to figure out if the risk balances out the reward in this case and would prevent people from spamming TBN when they can. Ultimately though it's probably not a can of worms worth opening so I won't die on that hill

MP and Blood both have a potency value attached.

The difficulty with short recast mitigation carrying even marginal dps benefits is that players start using them on recast. We saw this in Stormblood when Sheltron gave MP on block along with a Swipe proc. It also meant that many PLD players felt like Intervention was a waste. You do see outlier cases like Vengeance, but I suppose the 'reasoning' (as much as I dislike it) is that it's on a much longer recast.

I was comparing TBN to SAM's Third Eye and Vengeance to see why those could be a DPS gain, I think the other factor is that neither of those are targetable like TBN which lessens the opportunities to use them (and of course SAM not being a tank isn't getting hit by autos and TBs).

The one solution that hasn't been looked at yet is rewarding players for using short recasts on specific boss actions, like red arrow tankbuster attacks. You could either give a special dps proc off of it, or unlock a 'counter attack' similar to Chelonian Gate or Cold Fog. That eliminates the pressure to use the ability on recast, while giving tank damage dealing a bit of extra flavor to distinguish it from melee dps.

Could be a cool idea