Has anyone quit healing?

[SargeTheSeagull]

I won't reply with a quote because it would take far too long. Here's the thing, there are two solutions to current healer design. 1: Go back to how healers worked pre-ShB. Each healer has a comparatively in depth DPS rotation with more unique healing actions and fewer overpowered spells like pneuma and macrocosmos and redundant actions like haima/panhaima, cure/cure2/solace benefic/benefic2/aspected benefic/ED etc. or 2: Rework all content by radically increasing incoming damage in all content in the game so that healers are actually required and forced to use their toolkits in all content ever implemented to avoid difficulty spikes. The only one of these that is even feasible is option 1. Reworking every FATE, dungeon, trial, leve, raid, 24 man and most savage encounters to require healers would be more work than it's worth. The best option is what we had before 5.0. And here's the thing, even in other games where damage is CONSTANTLY hitting every member of the party and you will die without a good healer (even in dungeons) such as wow, healers have far more in-depth rotations than healers in 14.

[Renathras]

I won't reply with a quote because...

There are more than two, honestly. That's technically an either-or fallacy, but leaving that aside: Even in pre-ShB, this was never really true outside of some Coils fights and some Alex Savage (which was bad enough it broke guilds). So that's not a good strategy. This was pre-4.0. To the latter, even looking at SB healer damage kits, WHM only had one more spell, a second DoT. Yes, we had Aero 3 (I still miss the twirly stick cast animation), but you realistically only used that in AOE before rolling into Holyspam. The reason that we lost the healers having more complex kits was people complaining about how hard it was to heal and do damage AND that the harder healers (AST/SCH), despite already out damaging WHM on the whole, complained that they weren't out-damaging it ENOUGH for the effort required.

This is why we ended up with the ShB changes and why the Devs will never go back. So your option 1 isn't even feasible, either. It's not "the best option", it's a non-starter.

So, what other options are there? Well, one is what I've suggested; making variable difficulty healer DPS kits and letting people pick the one they like best. I think the thing is, though, we all know people will pick the easy one if they have equal healing/damage output.

As to WoW, it depends on the Era. In Wrath as a Healadin, my DPS kit was Judgement, Holy Shock, and Autoattack (before they made Exorcism usable on non-undead/demons). In Cata on my Resto Druid, it was Moonfire (Dia) and Wrath (Glare). I feel like the WoW DPS kits (at least SOME OF THEM) are comparable to the FFXIV ones...though they have more variation, which I think is a good thing and have advocated for here.

Couldn't resist looking up this week's person-who-clearly-doesn't-know-what-they're-talking-about on the no no site and guess what I found? All greys and two greens. Yet again, the only people who like current healer design are people who don't know what they're talking about.

Personal attacks aside, I very much DO know what I'm talking about. I don't have a static - which makes a difference and if you don't know that it makes a difference, you shouldn't be talking. I understand completely that high end healing, when you have a practiced static, and are doing content on farm is boring to some people. It wouldn't be to me because stuff like that genuinely doesn't bore me, but to each their own.

If you can't form an opinion of someone other than "This person who doesn't have a top end group and has to lug PF people through encounters doesn't parse 99%", you really need a new outlook.

[Renathras]

Let's break this down...

If I enjoyed effortlessly winning by mashing one button

No healer damage kit in FFXIV is one button.

It's hard to "enjoy healing" when healing is flat-out not necessary in anything below P3S.

Healing IS necessary, it's just trivial. That's the problem, and I've said I agree with that point many times.

It's hard to "enjoy healing" when dungeon bosses hit like a wet noodle, tank self-sustain lets them solo Normal raids, and healers have kits bloated with multiple copies of the same spell (do you want Cure 2, oGCD Cure 2, instant-cast Cure 2, or two Cure 2s in a trenchcoat - a.k.a. Benediction?)

Okay, two Cure 2s in a trenchcoat made me laugh. I think the problem is again the above - too little healing is required and our oGCD kits are arguably too powerful - combined with the Dev team running out of ideas IN SOME CASES. They strive to make the healers unique, so you end up with some healers being rather bland. This is MAINLY a problem with WHM (3.5x Cure 2s, 2x Medicas;3 if you include Assize) and less so with the other healers (Lustrate, Adlo, and Excog are different in how they work and their potencies whereas C2/Tetra/Solace all have identical potencies and no secondary effects) and them feeling they need to give new abilities with levels (more than upgrades) that leads to a lot of redundancy.

In such a scenario, healing is largely irrelevant. DPS becomes the only thing that matters, because it's the only thing incentivized by the game design. Don't like it? Blame Square, not us.

Somewhat agreed. And I have. But my solition is not the same as yours.

EDIT:

The only alternative to a logical argument is a Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. There are no other options. /s

The problem is, my position IS the middle. It's the middle between what we have now and what you want us to have. The thing is, the Devs are NOT going to go all the way to what you want, because they did that and decided they don't like it. So the middle, compromise position - which IS my position - is the alternative. The options are what we have now and what you want. That's the spectrum. My position is in the middle of that spectrum. You have this weird idea that the spectrum is my position (in the middle) to your position, but you're leaving out the half that is my position over to what we have now. You somehow think you can exclude what we have now, despite it kind of being the default/status quo position and what the Dev team seems to be most inclined to, since they doubled down on it after ShB into EW.

That doesn't really make sense.

The infantilization is coming from Square. YoshiderP has stated he doesn't want to "stress" healers by asking them to, y'know, do their job. He defends deleting healer DPS skills because "healers should focus on healing," then defends content that doesn't ask healers to heal, and gives tank and DPS jobs healing skills, all in the name of not "stressing" the widdle babby heawers uwu.

Except he doesn't say that, you do. Saying "healers should focus on healing" and "we don't want to stress people (LEADING TO MASSIVE SHORTAGES OF A ROLE)" isn't saying "aww, widdle babby go heawwy!". The infantilization is coming from your view of the situation. Talk about the excluded middle...

I'll take, "Things a Disc Priest would never say," for $400, Alex.

Can't say Disc Priest. But where did I SAY Disc Priest? I said "Most MMO healers". In one of my posts here (possibly in another thread), I discussed Druid, Paladin, and Holy Priest damage kits. "Most MMO healers" are not Disc Priests. You pointed out the exception that proves the rule...

...and seem to have skipped all the times I've said "But I think they should make SOME of our healers in FFXIV have more complex DPS kits for the people that enjoy that gameplay." Indeed, I've outright called for SGE to have a RDM-like (without the melee phase) damage rotation and heal via Kardia, which would be like WoW Disc Priest or RIFT Chloromancer. I've advocated for the very thing you're using as the exception to debunk my position be added to FFXIV... <_<

[Renathras]

What, the freecure proc?
And I mean, if you're a thumbsucker, more power to you.

When you can ask this question without an insult, I may offer an answer.

Except the entire healer role, the tank role, and, slowly, but surely, the DPS role...

Except not really at all.

The problem with people like you is that you have major difficulty accepting that there are players of differing skill levels, from the lowest to the highest, and any reference to there being such is seen as a personal attack against you, whether or not you are the actual target of such words.

EDIT:

These things are not inherently bad things, but they all need to be considered and incorporated into the design, not just the lowest factors.

Which is...what I've continually been proposing.

Juggling DPS is part of the multi-tasking, so if you admit one is a part, then so is the other by default.

No, it really isn't. It CAN BE, based on the healer design, but it doesn't NEED to be, and in many games, isn't. Since this was talking about MMOs in general, not just FFXIV. A few examples offhand would be making resource management a thing to juggle (which we technically do - and not just MP - it's just largely automatic since we're MOSTLY awash in resources like Addersgall and *giggle* Faerie Gauge - most worthless thing in existence...) or making rolling buffs a thing - for example, if AST Cards were GCDs instead of oGCDs, though I know you'd hate that, and buffing was actually a direct part of their GCD playstyle. I remember an era of WoW where there was constant raidwide tick damage, so the Druid healers of the raid would "roll" HoTs across the rad and stack several on tanks.

These are all things to juggle that aren't DPS or DPS related.

That's because the rotation is the constant. The oGCDs woven in are not necessarily constant, and, therefore, don't get included in the rotation.

That's because healers...do not have...a damage "rotation". Dia isn't a constant (no DoTs are), instead being refreshed on a timer. oGCDs ARE BUTTON PRESSES. I would HOPE we can at least agree on that. So when we're talking APM (which is what we should be talking about), they actually count. You can't ignore those or we have to ignore between half and 3/4ths of all DPSer and Tank kits as well since they are likewise oGCDs.

Though, AGAIN, this is why I feel we should have healers with variable kits (the short version of my suggestion is WHM remain as is, AST get a 1-2-3 rotation like MCH with a DoT in there for funzies, SCH get 3-5 DoTs with actual interactions like Fester and Bane and potency that scales based on other DoT timers and a DoT you don't keep up all the time [something with a CD] that you use before Fester to boost its damage), and for SGE to get a RDM-like caster rotation making it more like a WoW Disc Priest or RIFT Chloromancer that heals by moving Kardia around and performing its DPS rotation, possibly with some CDs that do things like boost Kardia healing (like it has) or making the Kardia healing AOE, etc. Basically remove all of its heals other than its GCD heals (as emergency backups) and forcing it to heal by doing a DPS rotation.

Apparently only as much as you can't help yourself from drawing conclusions from nothing and being offended for others like an SJW glued to their twitter feed.

Are you talking to me or your mirror?

Oh, by the by: This one counts as a personal attack.

If it didn't matter to you as to whether or not I did care before you made your emotionally charged statement, why does whether or not I know matter to you now?
With that in mind, I stand by my statements.

My original post that you replied to by quoting me...wasn't to you. I literally quoted someone else. Unless this is an alt?

Regardless, you're unwise to "stand by" your statement, then. Hating something just because of your (not even correct) perception about the person proposing it, when you don't even know what it is or if it agrees with your own position/compromises with your own position in any way, is just foolish.

The part where you say "it's the only take," which it's not. The part where you also seem to think you know what I want, assume what everyone else wants, but, in fact, you don't exactly know. Also the part where you seem to think you know better and try to speak with authority but resort to attacking others only to be offended when someone turns it back on you or decides to speak in opposition even when not specifically against you.

Is this an alt? Because again, I didn't originally reply to you.

As to the take - I was saying the Devs have already said they WOULDN'T do what you're asking for. That means it isn't on the list of viable alternatives to discuss.

As for "assuming" what everyone wants - you guys have literally said what you want in these posts. I didn't have to ASSUME anything, I just had to read your words. Unless you were lying? Assuming you've all been saying what you want honestly, there's no assumption on my part, just basic reading.

I don't "seem to think I know better". I think we're equals discussing a topic of mutual importance who all have different but generally valid perspectives. Where have I ever outright said anyone doesn't know what they're talking about or shouldn't be allowed to take part? In general, where have I attacked others? I've attacked people's arguments or positions. And no one has "turned it back on" me. People engaging in personal attacks are doing so based on their own initiatives. I try really hard not to just namecall or personally attack people, especially not in an initial reply quote where I try to focus on addressing their positions and seeing if there is common ground or refuting positions that I think are in error or might be missing key points/nuance that is important.

Nah, they didn't say that at all, actually. But if it makes you feel better, I doubt they'd ever give me what it is that I actually want, better still that they'll likely not give you what you're proposing.

They gave us ShB healing, doubled down on it in EW, and have responded to questions about changes with "Just play Ultimate". I'm pretty sure that's sufficient for us to know they've made their intentions here known. I think they even DID say something about not planning to or wanting to revert healing.

And you're right, they won't likely give us what I'm proposing. I'm not sure why you say "better still" since my position gives you half of what you want and the status quo gives you none of what you want. You hate me so much, you'd spite your own self getting some of what you want just because you think it would hurt me? And the irony is...I'm perfectly happy with what we have now and am only making my proposal FOR THE SAKE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU, so if they don't give us what I'm proposing, it hurts me none at all.

Your "better still" is you spiting YOURSELF thinking you're spiting me, when the outcome you say (thinking it hurts me) is exactly what I'm perfectly happy with. Seriously, what the actual hell? o.O

I have news for you: that's not the alternative to your proposal, that is the current state of the game, and has been for years.

...that's...what makes it the alternative. The options at present are not "what you want vs what I want". They're "what we have now vs what I propose for your sake vs what you want", with "what you want" being off the table per the Devs. I'm not sure how you're not getting this.

Meanwhile, there are other proposals out there that provide compromises that are much easier to implement and also easier to swallow for both sides, some that don't even interfere with the current state of affairs (except to allow more growth), but those likely won't be considered either. And that's the real shame.

Oh, there ARE other alternatives. Few provide compromises, as they do not compromise with people who like the current system other than saying "Well, you don't have to run Savage, so you can do no DPS and just never get any clears". Note that this is, again, something the Devs have said via their actions they do not want (people overwhelmed with healing DPS kits or that the DPS kits are so complex that people simply avoid clearing or even trying higher end content). Moreover, the "compromises" are not "much easier to implement". If they were, we would already have them. They also are not "much easier to swallow for both sides", considering my compromise literally gives you what you want, just only on SOME of the healer Jobs while leaving ONE - not four, not three, not even two; ONE - for people that like the current system. You cannot get a more easy to swallow for both sides position than the proposal I've made!

Moreover, the positions you're fond of - the other proposals - DO change the current state of affairs. They would once again see many people leave the Extreme/Savage content entirely. Some being people who can't handle the DPS kits, some being people who would find them too stressful, some being those who don't enjoy DPSing in general, and some being kicked for not doing it good enough. We'd also see far more toxicity in DF in general since healers that do not use the full DPS kit or don't do so well would be berated in party chat - they very reason they changed it to ShB in the first place!

That's why your position and those other proposals (which are mostly some variation on "make healer DPS on par with SMN/RDM DPS, but for ALL healers, and tell anyone who doesn't like that to play another game" to put it in a nutshell for simplicity) will never be implemented.

That's why my proposal IS the middle ground compromise position.

But, as you say, the Devs probably won't enact it.

...because people like you would still complain that you didn't get EVERYthing.

.

But you know, I'm going to bow out here, I think. There's no point in continuing this discussion because you've shown YOU are the one uncompromising in position..and the Devs are never going to read this anyway. And if they did, they'd see you and those like you rejecting the true compromise position, and so never enact it. /shrug
I've literally never once had difficulty accepting that, nor have I stated anything in ANY of my posts. Quite the opposite. I've even advocated for different healers to have different skill floors and ceilings/levels of difficulties PRECISELY TO ADDRESS players of different skill levels. Are you actually reading ANY of my posts before replying, I wonder...?

What I call personal attacks are when you make personal attacks. Generally against me, but also more indirectly like suggesting that "thumb suckers" are the only ones who would like anything that I like or think is interesting.

[MintnHoney]

Hysterical ishkabibble

I understand your posts better than you'd want to admit.
Any concept that forces any of the healer jobs into a position where they will be of a higher skill floor than the others would be generally unacceptable to the developers due to accessibility concerns, and any concept that puts any of the healer jobs into a position where they will have a lower skill ceiling and a lower skill floor than the others, regardless of intent, would inevitably lead to all of the jobs having their skill ceilings and floors brought down to match.
Your "one true compromise" is a path that we've already gone down. We're here. We don't want to be here, therefore your proposal isn't the best for what we're looking for, at least as far as I see it.
I'm sad that this hurts your feelings, but that's where we are.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Um akshually the devs said they don't want to add more damage buttons, also ten years ago two wow healers had pretty simple rotations. Checkmate.

The devs also said they wouldn't put every raid buff on two minutes and that happened. Giving healers buttons they used to have (that are still in the game's code btw) is infinitely more likely than reassessing every encounter's design. Currently in wow, the only healer with a dot and nuke is resto druid which heals almost exclusively via HoTs. Managing HoTs when damage is constantly going out on the entire party is occupying enough to justify only having a DoT and wrath. Mistweaver has what amounts to a 1-2-3 combo with a handful of dps cooldowns. Disc priest has (depending on what talents you pick) up to 8 or 9 damage buttons. Holy priest has at least 4 and i've only played that around level 25. Resto shaman has at least 4 at only level 25. Holy paladin has four or five depending on what you count as part of its rotation. This is in a game with literally constant lethal damage going out. Giving scholar three dots, giving astro doublecast from pvp and declunking cards, giving WHM old fluid aura, seraph strike and aero 3, and fixing toxicon and phlegma isn't so radical a change that it will make healing impossible or cause unneeded wipes. It'll just make the role more engaging.

[Semirhage]

And for reference: "enjoy playing healers" means "enjoy healing". If we enjoyed dealing damage and complex damage rotations, we'd all be playing DPSers. What YOU seem to want is to be a DPSer with some oGCD heals so you can benefit from healer ques.

Ah, we get to your actual point- for all your bellyaching about personal attacks, you Sylphies always like accusing me of not being a "real" healer, of being just a DPS who wants fast queues.

I've played support roles in nearly every RPG, MMO or otherwise, that I've played since childhood. You know what healers spend most of their time doing in those RPGs? It's not healing. This is yet more "HeALeRs ShOULd HeAL onLy, it's in the name!" folderol. You know why it's okay that your healers have few attacks in single-player Final Fantasy games? Because they're lousy with buffs and debuffs that matter. Because difficult encounters are one and done, not things you do on repeat for tomestones. Because you have a whole party to manage, so you're not just spamming one attack spell over and over again; you've got another two or three party members to deal with. In more tactical RPGs? Oh boy. You've got buffs and debuffs along with a galaxy of other things you could be doing on top of that. Healing DOES happen. You keep your party alive, and you feel good when you do it. That doesn't mean you're constantly spamming Medica. It doesn't mean every encounter rides your healing resources to the bone.

Healers are fun because they allow you to multitask and make impactful decisions. Nerfing oGCDs to oblivion to "force" healers to spam GCD heals like they're "supposed" to makes them *slightly* less boring, but not significantly so. You're still barely making decisions. There's still very little variety in your gameplay. What Sylphies utterly refuse to engage with is the idea that not healing isn't something that evil mustache-twirling DPS mains masquerading as healers for fast queues enjoy doing. It's also the success state for being good at it. The reward for being successful should never, ever be Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. That's rewarding skill with tedium. It's bad. Game. Design.

[ty_taurus]

Gentle reminder to the sylphies that fixing the lack of damage in future content and making healing a far more prominent aspect of healer gameplay based through far more frequent unavoidable AoEs, auto-attacks, critical hits, and random damage mechanics renders all the content we've created up until this point dead to healer gameplay and only improve on the healer experience for everything at that point and onward.

Changing the healers to fit within the content in how it's been designed since day 1 is a far more efficient way to address the issue rather than addressing all the content moving forward.

[Silverbane]

It's bad. Game. Design.

FFXIV has overtaken WoW in terms of the number of subscribers, and is SE's most profitable game.
So expect more of the same kind of "bad. Game. Design" in the future,
Because the subs and profits matter way more than your amateur opinion on game design does.

[ty_taurus]

FFXIV has overtaken WoW in terms of the number of subscribers, and is SE's most profitable game.
So expect more of the same kind of "bad. Game. Design" in the future,
Because the subs and profits matter way more than your amateur opinion on game design does.

It's almost like a game isn't exclusively just good or bad, but can actually be a combination of positive and negative qualities, but also that having positive qualities isn't an excuse for the negative qualities, especially for a game that continues to be developed beyond its initial launch.