Has anyone quit healing?

[Semirhage]

I look forward to the tank we design with 1111111111111111111 as their damage rotation. It's only fair that we appeal to people who find 1111111111111 fun after all.

I look forward to the melee, ranged, and caster DPS that are designed with 111111111111111111 as their main source of engagement. We can't leave behind anyone who enjoys that after all. Why isn't there a job for them?

I enjoy WHM's aesthetic. I think it sucks that people are totally willing to sacrifice it as the boring terribly-designed-on-purpose job because people who don't actually enjoy playing healers and don't care about improving at the role "need" a job that basically can't fail even if they're slamming their faces on the controller.

[Renathras]

I look forward to the tank we design with 1111111111111111111 as their damage rotation. It's only fair that we appeal to people who find 1111111111111 fun after all.

I look forward to the melee, ranged, and caster DPS that are designed with 111111111111111111 as their main source of engagement. We can't leave behind anyone who enjoys that after all. Why isn't there a job for them?

I enjoy WHM's aesthetic. I think it sucks that people are totally willing to sacrifice it as the boring terribly-designed-on-purpose job because people who don't actually enjoy playing healers and don't care about improving at the role "need" a job that basically can't fail even if they're slamming their faces on the controller.

[EDIT: Note here I'm talking about GCDs. Healers have oGCDs they weave as well, and since you're ignoring them to make the 11111 (it's actually 211111211111) argument, we can also ignore other Jobs' oGCDs and will only be talking about GCDs in their rotations.]

I mean, WAR is borderline that already. They have, what, 5 damage buttons (GCDs), one of which they only use every 30 seconds to keep their self-buff up? If Storm's Eye was removed/the buff made baseline and their 1-2-3 got the PvP treatment, WAR would basically be a Tank designed like what you're asking for.

SMN is basically a 1-2 button DPS as is, the 2 of which is a oGCD in Titan. You cycle through Summons and you use those two buttons that change based on which is out. Honestly, if they just merged Ruin 3 and Gemshine so that Ruin 3 was the 1 in the 1-2, it would achieve that same result with the 2 being functionally SMN's "Dia". The kit already does this in DWT/FBT with Ruin 3 becoming the basic Demi attack GCD. So we already have that for Casters.

MCH is close to this on Ranged. You have your 1-2-3 combo and all of 3 buttons (Air Anchor, Drill, Buzzsaw) that you use on CD. The PvP system has the 1-2-3 combo as one button and AA/Drill/BS/and also Bioblaster as one button that just cycles between the four every 20 seconds. MCH is basically this right now, and could be made into a 11111 DPS fairly easily.

The only role in the game that doesn't have one of these right now is Melee, and in the case of healers, ALL FOUR healers are this right now.

Being designed to be simple and straightforward isn't "boring terribly-designed-on-purpose". What you're failing to understand is "Semirhage doesn't like this thing" does not mean "This thing is terribly designed...on purpose!" I know it's hard for you to grasp, but many players DO like that style of play. Square is never going to get rid of it. So your option is either all healers have it, or WHM has it and the others have something else.

Aesthetically, I prefer SCH, but I like WHM's simple style. If we made all those changes I said in the other thread, I'd swap from SCH to WHM. But I'd accept that, since it means people like you could play AST/SCH/SGE and find at least one you enjoy.

And for reference: "enjoy playing healers" means "enjoy healing". If we enjoyed dealing damage and complex damage rotations, we'd all be playing DPSers. What YOU seem to want is to be a DPSer with some oGCD heals so you can benefit from healer ques.

[MintnHoney]

And for reference: "enjoy playing healers" means "enjoy healing". If we enjoyed dealing damage and complex damage rotations, we'd all be playing DPSers. What YOU seem to want is to be a DPSer with some oGCD heals so you can benefit from healer ques.

Far be it from me to step into this unwanted, but that's... an odd thing to take from Semirhage's statement. They're advocating (and have always been) that WHM shouldn't just be made into an idiot job just because someone (you, apparently) decide we need one, therefore WHM should be that. In fact, if any job should be the job that keeps the "211111..." gameplay, it should be AST, so long as the focus remains on the cards.
If you're not advocating for making the WHM into an idiot job, then, excuse me; however, for someone so focused on correcting others and being so wildly specific about keeping details accurate, you're failing to establish that in your argument.

That said, there's no reason why any job should just be an idiot job at all, to be honest. There are many ways to keep a job's skill floor entry-level friendly without enforcing a lobotomy, while allowing room between it and the skill ceiling. The gradually declining space between the floor and ceiling is the reason why players, at least as attested to in this thread, generally tend to leave the healer role for something that they feel has room for growth and rewarding/fun gameplay, even if they usually enjoy healing.

[Renathras]

<some personal insults alongside some otherwise good discussion topics>

No, Semirhage's point seems to be that they like doing damage and want a more buttons damage kit. It has nothing to do with being an "idiot" or not.

AST also makes no sense for the simple gameplay, since the point of having a simple Job is for it to be...simple...and AST isn't. As I noted above, WHM has the most straightforward and direct healing kit. I contrasted Tetra and Essential Dignity to make this point, but I can pick out just about any other set of comparable abilities and show that the AST ones have more nuance and the WHM ones are straighforward "just the facts, ma'am" abilities to do the job at hand.

Enjoying healing tends to mean enjoying healing...not enjoying dpsing. Indeed, many people that play healers (and to a lesser extent, tanks) in MMOs do so explicitly because they find DPS rotations unsatisfying or unenjoyable to perform.

But hey, since you don't like my suggestion, I guess it means you prefer the alternative? STICKING WITH WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WITH NO CHANGES?

Because make no mistake, that IS the alternative. In making the perfect the enemy of the good, you sacrifice any shot at your perfect. I'm perfectly content with everything remaining as it is today, too. By your words, I would wager you are not. What I'm proposing is the compromise position.

[MintnHoney]

No, Semirhage's point seems to be that they like doing damage and want a more buttons damage kit. It has nothing to do with being an "idiot" or not.

Based on what? Because they don't like WHM being defaulted to automatically being the simple job that stays dumbed down because "there has to be one?"

AST also makes no sense for the simple gameplay, since the point of having a simple Job is for it to be...simple...and AST isn't.

Some parts can remain simple to make room for complicated pieces; a simple GCD kit, i.e., simplified general gameplay that an entry level healer would generally be putting around with, is perfect for AST to allow players at the entry level to heal while an emphasis on cards would allow growth without hurting the skill floor.

As I noted above, WHM has the most straightforward and direct healing kit. I contrasted Tetra and Essential Dignity to make this point, but I can pick out just about any other set of comparable abilities and show that the AST ones have more nuance and the WHM ones are straighforward "just the facts, ma'am" abilities to do the job at hand.

Indeed, and things can be improved and added so that there's kit interactivity, or a proper rotation, without taking away from the basic structure of the basic healer kit, so that, WHM, too, can be fun to play for various skill levels and not just the ones sucking on their thumbs.

Enjoying healing tends to mean enjoying healing...not enjoying dpsing. Indeed, many people that play healers (and to a lesser extent, tanks) in MMOs do so explicitly because they find DPS rotations unsatisfying or unenjoyable to perform.

And many of those people who play healer classes in MMOs also tend to get to enjoy gameplay where they aren't infantilized. Multi-tasking is usually the name of the game in healer MMO gameplay, which usually does include juggling DPS along with other management and tool use.
Unfortunately, FFXIV goes against that, with a non-traditional healing model that tries to inject the feeling of a JRPG into an MMORPG, and it just doesn't work 1:1 without other requirements being met.

But hey, since you don't like my suggestion, I guess it means you prefer the alternative? STICKING WITH WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WITH NO CHANGES?

Actually, I didn't say anything about your "suggestion" as a whole, but sure. I'll be in the "I don't like your suggestion" camp, but raise you a "there are people out there with better ideas than you've put forth, and, after your display, I'd wager that there are even ideas that are even better than that which you will likely never be able to fathom" to go along with it.

Because make no mistake, that IS the alternative. In making the perfect the enemy of the good, you sacrifice any shot at your perfect. I'm perfectly content with everything remaining as it is today, too. By your words, I would wager you are not. What I'm proposing is the compromise position.

Your uncompromising take on all things is not the only alternative, no matter how much you want to disregard other avenues. Given that you are not the developer, and given that this is a discussion forum with other participants, by default, there are many different alternatives, no matter how personally insulted you may be.

[Renathras]

Based on what?

Based on any discussion alternatives that aren't "make the DPS kit more involved" being met with scorn.

Some parts can remain simple to make room for complicated pieces;

"The simple parts allow more complex parts to not be as overwhelming" isn't simple, though. The complex parts make it...not simple. I do agree that if we gave SCH/AST/SGE more complex kits, AST should be the simplest to allow for their Card play. It's why I think AST should have a static 1-2-3 rotation, possibly with a DoT to refresh here and there.

Indeed, and things can be improved and added so that there's kit interactivity,

There IS kit interactivity, just not with their damage kit. And I'll note you can't resist the urge to make personal attacks...

And many of those people who play healer classes in MMOs also tend to get to enjoy gameplay where they aren't infantilized.

No one is being "infantilized". The problem I have with people arguing from your side of this issue is that none of you seem able to resist urges to attack people as bads, babies, or invalids.

Multi-tasking is usually the name of the game in healer MMO gameplay, which usually does include juggling DPS along with other management and tool use.

Mulit-tasking is. Juggling DPS is not. Most MMO healers have extremely basic DPS kits that they use when soloing and either don't use at all in group content or use very very minimally as filler. As I've noted, the difference in FFXIV is how little actual healing needs to be done and how healing oGCDs are so powerful they can deal with it without needing GCD heals. Note that all the people insisting there is a 11111 rotation seem to fail to realize that if they're weaving oGCDs in there, it's not 11111, it's 12134151161211371181914 and so on. Those are buttons that must be pressed. If you look at JUST the GCDs, most Jobs in this game have between 2 and 7 that they push often. WHM has (in single target fights) 3. GNB has 6. WAR has 5. SMN has 3 (because of how Gemshine and Astral Flow work), and so on. The oGCDs are what make the game in a lot of ways, but especially for Tanks and Healers and is what is different vs something like WoW where the GCD is shorter but oGCDs don't exist.

Actually, I didn't say anything about your "suggestion" as a whole, but sure. I'll be in the "I don't like your suggestion" camp, but raise you a "there are people out there with better ideas than you've put forth, and, after your display, I'd wager that there are even ideas that are even better than that which you will likely never be able to fathom" to go along with it.

You REALLY can't help yourself from making personal attacks, can you? Do you even know what my suggestion is? No, you're just attacking it as an extension of attacking me. It could be something you'd agree with if you delved into it, but no, personal attack trumps reason. My "display" is trying to be reasonable and offer compromise solutions to people that want to get 100% of everything their way, aren't interested in competing positions nor in compromise, and react toxicly to anyone who doesn't share their position. Look through this thread and you can see anytime someone says they like the current model or would like small changes to it but not the kind you ask for, how they're attacked and people attacking them (often quoting them out of context or on technicalities) get double digit updoots. Apparently, people trying to be calm and reasonable and offer compromises but who AT ALL like the current model or who dislike DPSing and don't want more DPS forced on them are to be tarred, feathered, and run out of the forum on a rail.

Your uncompromising take

How on earth is my take "uncompromising"?! o.O Genuine question. My "take" is "make some of the healers much more complex, some a bit more complex, and one leave at the current level of complexity". How is that "uncompromising" in any way? The one being uncompromising here is you with your "I get everything I want and you get nothing, otherwise I'm bored and unsatisfied and you're a little baby anyway"?

on all things is not the only alternative, no matter how much you want to disregard other avenues. Given that you are not the developer

No, the Devs have already said they aren't giving you want you want. So the alternative to what I propose - my proposal being the compromise position - is the Devs just continuing to do what they've been doing and YOU getting nothing.

The situation is not "You get what you want OR we go half-way to what you want". The situation is "You get NOTHING that you want OR we go half-way to what you want". The status quo is what the Devs have indicated they want. So it is the alternative in question vs the compromise.

No matter how personally insulted you may be.

[Silverbane]

Referring to Mintnhoney:

You REALLY can't help yourself from making personal attacks, can you?

No, Mintnhoney can't, even taking to posting personal attacks on me on threads I'm not even involved with. This seems typical for the people complaining about healing. It's their attempt at cancel culture, at drowning out/driving off anyone who disagrees with them. But that's fine; their antics are not going to impress the JP developers.

The commonality in the complaints about healers in FFXIV is that the complainers all want healers to be more important, or even worse, necessary. Many no doubt long for the days when a healer was so necessary, they could grief a DF party by simply letting people who didn't please them die.

Those days are gone forever. SE has made so that most Light Party content can be cleared with any three of the party members, and most Full Party content can be cleared with any seven (or even six) of the party members. This is intentional.

Anyone with enough play time has seen this plenty times: finishing a Light Party dungeon after a tank, healer, or DPS has DC'd, after of course a respectful wait for them to come back. And on most eight and twenty-four man content, no one seems to care that someone has DC'd.

This is SE's goal, so that the presence in a DF party of a griefer, a dick healer, or just a new sprout who doesn't know their role yet won't drive new players away from the game.

One part of accomplishing this goal was reducing unavoidable damage and giving tanks and DPS more healing and mitigation capability. So the other party members are no longer dependent on the healer for their survival, they just need to stay out of stupid, do some of the mechanics, and use their own self-heal and mitigation buffs.

Because the complainers here fail to understand the above, they keep demanding things SE will never do. And SE, rightly, will ignore them, and not just because their rude spoiled-brat behavior here is not tolerated in adults in Japanese culture.

[Punslinger]

And for reference: "enjoy playing healers" means "enjoy healing". If we enjoyed dealing damage and complex damage rotations, we'd all be playing DPSers. What YOU seem to want is to be a DPSer with some oGCD heals so you can benefit from healer ques.

If I enjoyed effortlessly winning by mashing one button, I'd play Cookie Clicker.

I've linked to my refutation of this talking point multiple times now, might as well do it again.

Give it a read and maybe you'll understand why we're asking for better DPS rotations. It's hard to "enjoy healing" when healing is flat-out not necessary in anything below P3S. It's hard to "enjoy healing" when dungeon bosses hit like a wet noodle, tank self-sustain lets them solo Normal raids, and healers have kits bloated with multiple copies of the same spell (do you want Cure 2, oGCD Cure 2, instant-cast Cure 2, or two Cure 2s in a trenchcoat - a.k.a. Benediction?), that massively outweigh incoming damage in 95% of the game content. It's hard to "enjoy healing" when, contra YoshiderP's assertions, healer DPS has been mathematically proven to be necessary in at least some Savage tiers.

In such a scenario, healing is largely irrelevant. DPS becomes the only thing that matters, because it's the only thing incentivized by the game design. Don't like it? Blame Square, not us.

But hey, since you don't like my suggestion, I guess it means you prefer the alternative? STICKING WITH WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WITH NO CHANGES?

The only alternative to a logical argument is a Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. There are no other options. /s

No one is being "infantilized". The problem I have with people arguing from your side of this issue is that none of you seem able to resist urges to attack people as bads, babies, or invalids.

The infantilization is coming from Square. YoshiderP has stated he doesn't want to "stress" healers by asking them to, y'know, do their job. He defends deleting healer DPS skills because "healers should focus on healing," then defends content that doesn't ask healers to heal, and gives tank and DPS jobs healing skills, all in the name of not "stressing" the widdle babby heawers uwu.

Most MMO healers have extremely basic DPS kits that they use when soloing and either don't use at all in group content or use very very minimally as filler.

I'll take, "Things a Disc Priest would never say," for $400, Alex.

[MintnHoney]

Based on any discussion alternatives that aren't "make the DPS kit more involved" being met with scorn.

Mm, K.

There IS kit interactivity, just not with their damage kit. And I'll note you can't resist the urge to make personal attacks...

What, the freecure proc?
And I mean, if you're a thumbsucker, more power to you.

No one is being "infantilized".

Except the entire healer role, the tank role, and, slowly, but surely, the DPS role...

The problem I have with people arguing from your side of this issue is that none of you seem able to resist urges to attack people as bads, babies, or invalids.

The problem with people like you is that you have major difficulty accepting that there are players of differing skill levels, from the lowest to the highest, and any reference to there being such is seen as a personal attack against you, whether or not you are the actual target of such words.
These things are not inherently bad things, but they all need to be considered and incorporated into the design, not just the lowest factors.

Mulit-tasking is. Juggling DPS is not.

Juggling DPS is part of the multi-tasking, so if you admit one is a part, then so is the other by default.

Note that all the people insisting there is a 11111 rotation seem to fail to realize that if they're weaving oGCDs in there, it's not 11111, it's 12134151161211371181914 and so on.

That's because the rotation is the constant. The oGCDs woven in are not necessarily constant, and, therefore, don't get included in the rotation.
Hence the rotation being only a few buttons, momentarily interrupted by any oGCDs. I don't disagree that oGCDs have to be considered, but I also agree that 211111211111 is the general rotation and does not make for a proper rotation. As long as a majority of the spell casts are just the 1, we still have a problem and I believe healers are justified in feeling the need to quit or request something more, while respecting what we currently have in place for the basic needs of the role.

You REALLY can't help yourself from making personal attacks, can you?

Apparently only as much as you can't help yourself from drawing conclusions from nothing and being offended for others like an SJW glued to their twitter feed.

Do you even know what my suggestion is?

If it didn't matter to you as to whether or not I did care before you made your emotionally charged statement, why does whether or not I know matter to you now?
With that in mind, I stand by my statements.

tarred, feathered, and run out of the forum on a rail.

No, I'd prefer to boil the skin off and pickle the rest.

How on earth is my take "uncompromising"?!

The part where you say "it's the only take," which it's not. The part where you also seem to think you know what I want, assume what everyone else wants, but, in fact, you don't exactly know. Also the part where you seem to think you know better and try to speak with authority but resort to attacking others only to be offended when someone turns it back on you or decides to speak in opposition even when not specifically against you.

No, the Devs have already said they aren't giving you want you want.

Nah, they didn't say that at all, actually. But if it makes you feel better, I doubt they'd ever give me what it is that I actually want, better still that they'll likely not give you what you're proposing.

So the alternative to what I propose - my proposal being the compromise position - is the Devs just continuing to do what they've been doing and YOU getting nothing.

I have news for you: that's not the alternative to your proposal, that is the current state of the game, and has been for years.

Meanwhile, there are other proposals out there that provide compromises that are much easier to implement and also easier to swallow for both sides, some that don't even interfere with the current state of affairs (except to allow more growth), but those likely won't be considered either. And that's the real shame.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Couldn't resist looking up this week's person-who-clearly-doesn't-know-what-they're-talking-about on the no no site and guess what I found? All greys and two greens. Yet again, the only people who like current healer design are people who don't know what they're talking about.