Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[Dahlinea]

Its a step towards looking more like classic SMN, but only that. A step. EW smn is the bones from which the job will have structure later. At least, that was the interpretation I got from playing the job.

The biggest problem is that it's not a new job. It's a job running for 10 years, albeit with its problems, but a job being constructed over all this time, with a playerbase that engaged into that job. Now they just exchange a 'full body' job with just the 'bones' of a new job for over two years? What the hell they are thinking?
I'm not against changes but to put a pretty much prototype job, devoid of core mechanics, in place of a job that's been here for 10 years and decidedly ignoring there was a playerbase for that old style... i can't see this in good light no matter how many people defend these changes claiming it's more in line with how SMN should be. There was definitely more ways to achieve this without having to completely kill a job that a lot of people used to play.

[5trange]

In the sense that an iconic summon appears for a brief attack and vanishes afterwards, yes. It now acts more in reminiscence of classic SMN from the franchise. The main line games and tactics included, SMN typically acts the same, though I wouldn't compare things like cast times in a turn-based game to a game that goes in real time, nor would i think they're comparable by range.

In tactics, summons hit a large area of the map. Maybe not the whole map, but a large area for massive damage. But in xiv, the slow but strong caster is already taken by BLM. They aren't going to make two immobile turrets, else that would alienate more players who already avoid BLM for the 'difficulty' it has.

Its a step towards looking more like classic SMN, but only that. A step. EW smn is the bones from which the job will have structure later. At least, that was the interpretation I got from playing the job.

As for SAM, most of the numerous threads are just folks who are brand new to the forums, like myself, doing what seemed to be an open invitation to 'provide feedback' which basically amounts to most of them saying 'we do not like the changes', so.. yeah. They're new. I'm new. We never had reason to check the forums before now.

You do make some good points, even though I would argue with some of them. I myself said it's impossible to make a direct translation of one iteration of the Job to another — which ultimately means XIV Summoner could have been whatever it wanted to be, for the very same reason. One of the things that is impossible to bring to our game is the sheer adaptability of the other versions of Summoner, which were different due to all the utility they provided, something which doesn't agree with an MMO like XIV where even having a Resurrection option has shown to cause debates. Still, as far as the feeling of summoning goes, I've already said the current direction may be good and I'm not amongst those who say "just go back" — which is unrealistic, let's face it. It's nonetheless bad, as has been said numerous times, that a lvl. 90 Job is considered a "step" that "will have structure later".
What I keep bringing up is how annoyed I am at the removal of a semi-complete toolkit that needed just a couple of tweaks to stand on its own feet as an independent Job without Primals, Bahamut and Phoenix — which is the point I made in the (already drowned) thread I opened recently.

About SAM and being new and wanting to voice opinions, that's perfectly fine. It's the number of threads that is a "problem", if anything because it diverts attention and creates repetition. I'd say a single thread with an OP that gets updated, plenty of views and contributions is better. Granted, the healer section has one such thread and in 2 years its only "success" has been dps-neutral Misery — if you could even say the thread in question had any merit. But the overall state of healers is unchanged. In the end no amount of feedback is really useful if the people in charge don't want to listen to it

[Anvaire]

The biggest problem is that it's not a new job. It's a job running for 10 years, albeit with its problems, but a job being constructed over all this time, with a playerbase that engaged into that job. Now they just exchange a 'full body' job with just the 'bones' of a new job for over two years? What the hell they are thinking?
I'm not against changes but to put a pretty much prototype job, devoid of core mechanics, in place of a job that's been here for 10 years and decidedly ignoring there was a playerbase for that old style... i can't see this in good light no matter how many people defend these changes claiming it's more in line with how SMN should be. There was definitely more ways to achieve this without having to completely kill a job that a lot of people used to play.

The problem is they tried to adjust it multiple times to get the job to be acceptable but it was never going to work ebecause you had two distinct camps. 1 those who liked old summoner dot base and those who wanted it to be more like traditional summoner. Ultimately the vocal majority who didnt play the previous design won.

Ill also say that while the old summoner was playable. It was a bit of a frankenstein of systems that sat on top of each other and ultimately were clunky. I doubt we'll ever see a job thats similiar specifically due to the issues it had and if were being honest there were a lot. SQEX for right or wrong have also been removing dots for a long time, so this was always going to happen sooner or later.

In terms of the new design. I would say its not terrible, but its not impressive either. The issue lies in that a straight up traditional summoner would not work in ffxiv. It would mean pressing a button and waiting for a very flashy animation to play out and then press another. Multiple summons could not be added into the battle system that would work. This is why we have the skinning solution in the new version. FFxiv's Lore categorically breaks the traditional summoner (though endwalker seems to have retconned this) which is why the link to carbuncle exists. I do think that the design needs work. But it is perfectly playable and it is enjoyable. But i do think those who liked the convoluted hodgepodge of the previous Design.... this one isnt really for you. I mained both and i enjoy both designs for different reasons. But i do agree that the new summoner needs a lot of work. Adding in cast times would help and deviating the primal rotations and add in the ww/SF manual rotaton rather then the automated one we get now would be a good start. If i were to choose to keep the new or restore the old. I will always say the new. From a flow perspective, the job is smooth and though it has some small clunkiness, overall is a much better job in terms of how its elements fit together.

In terms of ignoring the playerbase for 10 years, your argument is a little flawed. I have played SMN since ARR beta and i am still maining it. There are other long term summoner mains i know who also like and play it. In terms of providing feedback to the devs, sweeping statements like this are not that helpful, nor impactful. Ultimately though, I do think there are some players who will never like the new design and have been left behind by the rework as has happened with every reworked job. I will always sympaphise with those players but at the end of the day, there is no rule to say you have to play a job you no longer enjoy. I know that can seem a little harsh. But if all you can do is shout into the wind about how terrible the new design is... then maybe its best to move on from the job until it is adjusted further. The other option would be to acknowledge that while not perfect the new design has some potential if it were to be adjusted - a few tweaks and some added features and the new smn design could be as engaging as it was before.

[Dahlinea]

I agree on the ongoing removal of dots. By the end of Shadowbringers the dot systems was pretty much reliant on summoning the demi primals by resetting Tri-disaster. But I only agree up to here.
Now why remove Tri-disaster? Why not leave it as pure damage oGCD that resets as we summon the demi primals? Why not upon using it we get stacks or something to buff Fester dmg in place of dots? Why we not building something during Garura/Ifrit/Titan phases to increase our damage during demi phases? There was literally no reason to change certain skill functionalities. All these have nothing to do with "different systems on top of each other" and could really made it's way to the new SMN. Why is that the new job had to be this straight forward to the point there's no downsides or sense of improvement as you play it? You have almost nothing to think about while playing SMN. From LV60 onwards the rotation doesn't change in slightest, even with the new skill at LV86.
I don't care about old SMN or whatever, but releasing a barebones rework that just works like a LV60 job is really bad. And this is the point I make when I say "ignoring the playerbase", because wiping a LV80 job and replacing it with a LV60-like job is not caring for people that enjoy the SMN as the job it was and how you had to work for getting good results.
I still main the job btw and I'll take any opportunity I get to show my dissatisfaction with it until it get back to the levels of engagement it had before or until I stop playing the game.

[Anvaire]

my personal take on why Summoner is in the design space it is - is simply that the Devs ran out of time. I remember an interview a few months before the Job action reveal where they admitted they hadnt decided what they were going to do with the egi's. It was in response to a question around Egi glamours. I honestly think this is why the job is so half baked. Whether they go on to fix the issues or leave it to languish is another matter. When it ocmes to dev priorities it seems they are singular focused on Melee to the detriment of all other playstyles.

[xAFROx]

About SAM and being new and wanting to voice opinions, that's perfectly fine. It's the number of threads that is a "problem", if anything because it diverts attention and creates repetition. I'd say a single thread with an OP that gets updated, plenty of views and contributions is better. Granted, the healer section has one such thread and in 2 years its only "success" has been dps-neutral Misery — if you could even say the thread in question had any merit. But the overall state of healers is unchanged. In the end no amount of feedback is really useful if the people in charge don't want to listen to it

Well I can't argue that. Some folks have tried to compile all the complaints and discussions into one, but even that is just an amalgamation of the various thread links. Still, most of the smaller ones have lost traction and moved to the bigger ones for the most part, but yeah.

[CasterSvarog]

Personally there are couple of things I wish they would do with summoner instead of what we have right now.

Having Enkindle work like it used to back in the freaking live letter with two stacks you have to time properly to use during Summon Bahamut/Phoenix. I mean seriously, the 1k potency was not worth it for this change.
Having the Gemstone summons be oGcds instead of Gcds, not like Ruin has a free weave window all the time. Would also open the rotation slightly more in case of downtime and give Ruin 4 a better purpose as a proper movement and weaving tool.
Giving Titans spells cast times comparable to what Ruin already has, alongside slightly weaker potencies make it the middle ground between Garudas insta cast but weaker spells and Ifrits long cast but stronger spells.
Having Summon Bahamut/Phoenix be something you build towards via aetherflow and gemstone summons. Something not to dissimilar to StB Bahamut where you had to build up Dreadwyrm aether via aetherflow spells to summon Bahamut just using aetherflow for the gemstones. Sure it would mean no Bahamut in the first minute but that would be a small punishment for some depth. It would also make Energy drain into something more then just a superfluous 60 cooldown and into an actual mechanic.

In practice it would be something like ruin -> Dreadwyrm trance -> energy drain (gives gemstones/aetherflow) -> gemstones (each gives stack of astral aether could need only two to summon Demi’s to reduce rigidness of downtime) -> Summon Bahamut -> energy drain -> gemstones -> summon Phoenix -> energy drain -> gemstones -> Summon bahamut -> repeat.

Stuff would be modified, like potencies to make sure you want to use dreadwyrm trance instead of holding it for later, perhaps swap stuff around, things like that to fit with the two minute burst windows.

Bring back the old Firebird trace mechanic of using Fountain of fire into Brand of Purgatory. This was a cool mechanic that's just plain unique honesty. At the least, they could have Fountain of Fire buff Brand of Purgatorys potency for single target situations and keep the one button Brand for Aoe.

For smaller things, the Gemstone Ruins/Outbursts should gave their elemental affinites shown off better. It doesn't need to be a lot, just a basic explosion of Wind/Earth/Fire when the spell lands, and have those spell icons change colors. Give the Carbuncle auto attacks again, I already have a cheerleader minion, I don't need it as a pet, and finally bring the Elemental Astralflows to a lower level with weaker potencies/no wind puddle/crimson strike.

If they went through with these originally, I would honestly have a lot less to be upset about because it would have at least been more then mashing 2 until it’s time for bahamut.

[Listrella]

summoner's playstyle won't appeal to everybody, I personally love it but it won't appeal to everybody, jsut remember what is engaging to one person might be overly complicated to someone else. all I can say there's other classes that will probably be more to your liking if you don't like summoner.

[VentVanitas]

Which would be fine, if they suddenly didn't pull the rug from underneath the people that previously enjoyed SMN. I don't care if a job is introduced as something simple, which is why I have no strong feelings towards DNC or RPR because those jobs are not designed for people like me. SMN's rework on the other hand is straight up alienation, plain and simple.

[Axxion]

For me i more upset that i wasted my time. From the arr until now smn was my go to caster but now its just meh. As it stands right now i don't see any growth going from 90-100 or beyond. I'm still trying to figure what they meant by "breaking point". Like was the breaking point for smn?