Public Discussion: Community Feedback - Is it being heard?

[HyperiusUltima]

Of course they're going to direct peopel here. Because it's the most organized place for them to receive feedback.

But them directing people here doesn't automatically mean all 'non here' places don't exist or don't matter. The developers would be REALLY stupid to say 'oh but the forums say this so that clearly is everyone even though we see all these other sources saying otherwise'. That'd just be idiotic... but ASKING people to try their best to keep it centralized is still a good idea, even if you use feedback from a lot of places.

They look at the full spectrum, yes - but they are careful about what they pick. Going back to what I said about nitpicking discussions and the like in a post above. Still, the Forums are their best medium. We aren't a minority on the Forums because the CMs bother to stare at the forums since it's their job. Yet, they don't talk with us. Probably because they have to be careful with what things they say or what language they are using.

[Elesh]

They look at the full spectrum, yes - but they are careful about what they pick. Going back to what I said about nitpicking discussions and the like in a post above. Still, the Forums are their best medium. We aren't a minority on the Forums because the CMs bother to stare at the forums since it's their job. Yet, they don't talk with us. Probably because they have to be careful with what things they say or what language they are using.

We are a minority. We are probably 1% of the playerbase. Regardless of how much time the CMs spend here(which I think you overestimate how much of their job is just looking at the forums, having known a few CMs for various companies over the years - they have very varied jobs that involve a lot more than just staring at forums but that's neither here nor there), the devs know exactly what percentage of the population we represent AND they know that we typically don't represent the 'happy' portion of the population since typically happy players avoid forums as a general rule. As a result, any feedback they see here is automatically taken with a grain of salt and checked against other sources of data they have to determine if it's just '100 angry players ranting in a circle' or 'feedback representative of the community'.

[HyperiusUltima]

With all due respect, and I do mean this genuinely as you're one of the few people to actually keep civility in mind when engaging with me, I just don't think I'll be doing that. It's not lost on me how corrosive I'm being, but neither will I apologize, repent, or be sympathetic to those I fling said poison at. This has not been an occasional thing that hasn't gone my way in this game. This is an amazing piece of media I've invested a lot of time and money into. I was a healer main for years while having eyes only for AST.
Butchered.

I moved onto WHM. Certainly I'd find solace there.
Butchered.

Blue Mage is coming out? Along with Mimic, one of my favorite jobs. Mayhaps I'll find something there.
Butchered.

Okay, fine. I guess I get the hint that I should play a red icon. Samurai looks fun--
Neutered.

Tank... main?
Homogenized.

I understand the grievances you have with the development team and the game. Some of them I share since I've been healing for the past 2 Expansions. Of course, there are going to be people who are going to attempt to derail or simply insult others' opinions - whether they be constructive or not - because everyone's different. I don't mind inclusiveness, but there has to be a line that is drawn so as we aren't harming each other and our community with harmful insults or deprecative expletives. Some, like yourself, have a limit to the point they can't take it anymore, and that's fine. What isn't fine is not setting an example and simply taking it out on others to the point you're doing the exact same thing that you've seen in the first place. There's anger, annoyance. Something that Yoshida should see because we're discontent with what the Development Team has failed to do in the past few months since Endwalker's release, or even during Shadowbringers.

Typically, this thread was with all intents and purposes meant to serve as a way to express our grievances towards the Development Team and their lack of listening and discussion. There hasn't been an open discussion in years with Naoki Yoshida aside from FFXIV's Partners, such as MrHappy, Zepla HQ, MTQ, etc., who are all in line with keeping things positive and not bearing to express criticism. At times they have, but only in small ways that weren't broad strokes. Not to slander, but poking at certain things that get people's attention. They have asked sensitive questions in the Endwalker Tour because Healers have reached a boiling point, and it's going to boil over soon enough if things keep getting worse.

[BrokentoothMarch]

We are a minority. We are probably 1% of the playerbase. Regardless of how much time the CMs spend here(which I think you overestimate how much of their job is just looking at the forums, having known a few CMs for various companies over the years - they have very varied jobs that involve a lot more than just staring at forums but that's neither here nor there), the devs know exactly what percentage of the population we represent AND they know that we typically don't represent the 'happy' portion of the population since typically happy players avoid forums as a general rule. As a result, any feedback they see here is automatically taken with a grain of salt and checked against other sources of data they have to determine if it's just '100 angry players ranting in a circle' or 'feedback representative of the community'.

It's their only job. It is very much here and there and everywhere. Feel free to elaborate as your statistic for us being such a massive minority and the responsibilities of a CM cannot be relegated to "trust me bro". And even if it's not? I don't care? Plumbers, believe it or not, have a lot of paperwork to fill. Believe me when I say they don't make a habit of letting that get in the way of... Plumbing? Either way. Their mismanagement of time is hardly anybody's responsibility but their own, to say nothing of some seeing them active in the Off-Topic forum. Not a good look.

Unless your minority comment is some inconsistent drivel like most spout that's meant to imply the silent majority agrees with them, ignoring that SE themselves even admitted that "the silent are the first to leave". If you're expecting an uptick of people who don't care about the OF to show up, then keep dreaming. They'll plain just leave.

I understand the grievances you have with the development team and the game. Some of them I share since I've been healing for the past 2 Expansions. Of course, there are going to be people who are going to attempt to derail or simply insult others' opinions - whether they be constructive or not - because everyone's different. I don't mind inclusiveness, but there has to be a line that is drawn so as we aren't harming each other and our community with harmful insults or deprecative expletives. Some, like yourself, have a limit to the point they can't take it anymore, and that's fine. What isn't fine is not setting an example and simply taking it out on others to the point you're doing the exact same thing that you've seen in the first place. There's anger, annoyance. Something that Yoshida should see because we're discontent with what the Development Team has failed to do in the past few months since Endwalker's release, or even during Shadowbringers.

Typically, this thread was with all intents and purposes meant to serve as a way to express our grievances towards the Development Team and their lack of listening and discussion. There hasn't been an open discussion in years with Naoki Yoshida aside from FFXIV's Partners, such as MrHappy, Zepla HQ, MTQ, etc., who are all in line with keeping things positive and not bearing to express criticism. At times they have, but only in small ways that weren't broad strokes. Not to slander, but poking at certain things that get people's attention. They have asked sensitive questions in the Endwalker Tour because Healers have reached a boiling point, and it's going to boil over soon enough if things keep getting worse.

I think it's fair to say I don't believe in the slightest we're being heard, so any thrashing and wailing can be done with a free conscious. I'm also not trying to convince anyone that I may be correct, as some of the more polite arguments I've had about the state of things often devolving in me being told to shut up or that I'm being "entitled" (in a game I pay a monthly sub fee for that also has a cash shop. Bewildering). Block me if my words bother you as, short of being completely nixed, this is where I'm digging my feet in. You may question as to the reason why I would even do that anyways, call it venting. As I can't do anything in the DF, something I avoid like the plague now, without being immensely frustrated. I can't go to Eureka without seeing a deluge of bots with the community answer often being "it's dead content anyways" while simultaneously championing destroying 3rd party tweaks that should have been in the game long ago.

The healer situation has boiled long ago and they didn't care. They'll never care. Not until a near-1.0 situation happens and, should it happen, I don't have confidence it'll be saved again as I doubt the existence of a pocket-Yoshida (who's usefulness is limited to critical recovery, if only barely, as his track record shows as of late) that will come in clutch. And it's Yoshida's seemingly ego-feeding selective hearing that only feeds this awful corrosion. Asked about housing? Rolled his eyes and told people to wait. Asked about healers? Well, I told you how that went. Hrothgars were borderline being made fun of when their years-long wait was supposed to end, only to result in a "well we'll TRY, I guess, but you better get used to waiting more. 6 hairstyles over 3 years is too much, y'know!" while modders are there upstaging them in numbered hours.

They've had sensitive questions since, arguably, Stormblood, and our answer has been silence when it wasn't upgraded to mockery. This is a farce. We're being milked dry to fund NFT for other SE divisions. Why we pretend to the contrary that we're little else than cows is beyond me. Yes, I'm no better, but it'd be liberating to at least acknowledge it rather than face some legion of white-clad knights that feel the need to defend a multi-billion dollar corporation that doesn't seem to even know we exist from an idiot throwing a temper tantrum.

SE, every division thereof, is notoriously infamous for their shows of ego and thought that they can do no wrong. Out of all my poisonous takes, it's fair to know that maybe that's the one comment I can make that has value. Very concerning value. And if anyone thinks Yoshi exempt from this reputation, they are fools.

[Shougun]

We are a minority. We are probably 1% of the playerbase. Regardless of how much time the CMs spend here(which I think you overestimate how much of their job is just looking at the forums, having known a few CMs for various companies over the years - they have very varied jobs that involve a lot more than just staring at forums but that's neither here nor there), the devs know exactly what percentage of the population we represent AND they know that we typically don't represent the 'happy' portion of the population since typically happy players avoid forums as a general rule. As a result, any feedback they see here is automatically taken with a grain of salt and checked against other sources of data they have to determine if it's just '100 angry players ranting in a circle' or 'feedback representative of the community'.

Definitely still easily flawed data but I just I want add in statistics you can very successfully extrapolate info from very small subsets. Of course the more data the better, especially if there was an unforeseen flaw, but you can see something like 1% accurately predict 99%. Surprisingly small samples can be used for exceptionally accurate results. Then again given the nature of the -insert anywhere- places of feedback... it does obviously move about the data. People for example are more likely to come here if they have something they want to change rather than something they want to praise. This is where someone would make a mistake if they just blindly followed feedback, but if the players can accurately articulate why they want given feedback I believe some of the consequences of listening to a small portion of the community can be alleviated.




Obviously being hyper accurate would be... difficult... lol, but I just want to make sure people know that if you had good samples / only minimal sizes you'd not really need huge swathes of the community to fairly accurately represent the community as a generalization (which that in and of itself could create problems, like generalizing sentiments to extreme content that was intended for a narrow bandwidth of players).

Since they wont get pristine data they'll have to navigate it carefully but using all forms of available info, including their own internal data tools, they could probably have pretty good ideas of what's what... if they wanted.

[BrokentoothMarch]

Snip

The biggest issue is that, presumably, this is the job of the project manager. Whether they take verbal feedback or have it quantified into numerical data and relay it to the team so they can work on what is, at least on the face of it, highly desired by their customers. Who is our project manager? The man who told healers to find engaging content elsewhere? It's sad, but I think we might be stuffed.

[Elesh]

Definitely still easily flawed data but I just I want add in statistics you can very successfully extrapolate info from very small subsets. Of course the more data the better, especially if there was an unforeseen flaw, but you can see something like 1% accurately predict 99%. Surprisingly small samples can be used for exceptionally accurate results. Then again given the nature of the -insert anywhere- places of feedback... it does obviously move about the data. People for example are more likely to come here if they have something they want to change rather than something they want to praise. This is where someone would make a mistake if they just blindly followed feedback, but if the players can accurately articulate why they want given feedback I believe some of the consequences of listening to a small portion of the community can be alleviated.

The problem with this is that it is an opt-in sample, which fundamentally biases the data.

You need a truly random sample to do any sort of meaningful extrapolation from small sample sizes - which sadly is not the case for the forums.

[Shougun]

The problem with this is that it is an opt-in sample, which fundamentally biases the data.

You need a truly random sample to do any sort of meaningful extrapolation from small sample sizes - which sadly is not the case for the forums.

I mean I say as much in the post you quoted, but yes the data isn't pristine given how people opt into feedback (encourages views of votes of change, over votes of "I liked this, don't change this").

I wanted to address the "1%" concept though, that it's not terribly important it's not a huge portion of the community (though in-game polls and feedback periods would improve stuff a lot), and the accuracy (as I say in the post) isn't that great since we're biased ("it does move about the data" is what I said, based on the fact people come here to usually change rather than praise), but that given someone who is trying to be attentive and 'massage' everything (including using their internal tools, and other forms of feedback), can still get interesting things out of it (as I said one thing that I believe would help, is understanding why people want, or don't want, something more over than what they "I don't like it" without reason given).

We're not going to easily achieve 90% accurate but the info, using your own judgement of how the game should be as well, I believe is still more valuable than a middle finger to the data all together and humdruming along lol.

The biggest issue is that, presumably, this is the job of the project manager. Whether they take verbal feedback or have it quantified into numerical data and relay it to the team so they can work on what is, at least on the face of it, highly desired by their customers. Who is our project manager? The man who told healers to find engaging content elsewhere? It's sad, but I think we might be stuffed.

It would be interesting to see the devs address the community on expectations of healer gameplay*, I mean they've done this lightly before but to me it's clear that some healers want more to do (usually combat related, often because they don't need to heal in a lot of non-hyper difficult content with well geared / skilled teammates, and moreover doing diverse things not specifically two spells oscillating between them until it's time to cure). I believe the manager of healers doesn't agree, but it would be curious to see what their expectation of it was. Yoshida is indeed the producer and director and has said ultimately responsibility of things falls on him if there is an issue, which is good leadership, but I have to imagine there are many situations where each 'owner' of a concept gets a lot of say on the future of that thing. Alternatively it might be a strong, sizeable group, that feels counter, but there is also a strong sizeable group that feels counter to that lol... stuck between a tug of war XD.

*I imagine they wouldn't be excited to do as much as usually such situations can feel like a lose lose / hostage situation, buuuuuut.... I feel it would be interesting to listen to them, I'd certainly sit in on that meeting .

My personal feelings on it are usually increase support skills, some of which can be offensive, reduce / condense some of the healing power to ensure skill bloat doesn't incur (or bake support into them), consider making one healer have more than usual combat, ensure one of the healers is just relatively more complex (in the skill ceiling type way, not just 'confounding"), meanwhile ensuring one of the healers stays relatively simple, and then make a base line for the others between that. I do think there is some unfortunate realities for healers like the more powerful the team is the less valuable you are, and such... so having more things to do outside of healing is neat even if it isn't always direct damage (like in my mind one job's support might be more debuff / offensive) but another might be coming in with a lot of "enfire - next 5 skills the target deals does 50 potency extra" type stuff (so one healer feels very team oriented and doesn't target the monster very often, and another might feel more frantic, and another can be more monster focused - like sage, etc).

I don't think we're miles off from a good base but I do read the healer comments here . I would note though that one of the issues with healers is tied in with a mammoth of a topic (if for example people didn't get more hp/defense, a lot of healers would be healing a lot more- but such an extreme response would have a profound impact on the game as a whole)... Though that is why I like the idea of more support related skills, to which healers can have things to do of value outside of heal but not necessarily all be expected to do the exact theme of DPSing (some might more, but others would still be targeting friends and giving them boons or what have you).

[BrokentoothMarch]

The problem with this is that it is an opt-in sample, which fundamentally biases the data.

You need a truly random sample to do any sort of meaningful extrapolation from small sample sizes - which sadly is not the case for the forums.

You continue moving the goalposts as things need to conform to your own made-up standards of testing. Why are you so important? With what authority can you claim this to be genuine? Why does a test server not exist like every other multiplayer game exactly for this reason?

[MintnHoney]

We are a minority. We are probably 1% of the playerbase.

As I had said before, and as Shougun was kind enough to illustrate with numbers, we are a sample. For their intents and purposes, although there is certainly more for the devteam to consider, we are enough. We are more significant than just being a "1% minority" that has no business speaking because Eleshakai Eraia believes that we shouldn't feel as if we matter enough to do so.
Your attempts to "deflate" whatever you think you're trying to "deflate" will not work here, so how about you not care with the "silent majority," while I continue to care over here with the "minority," and simply agree to disagree. After all, if we're that insignificant, then you don't even need to bother.