Public Discussion: Community Feedback - Is it being heard?

[Elesh]

As I had said before, and as Shougun was kind enough to illustrate with numbers, we are a sample. For their intents and purposes, although there is certainly more for the devteam to consider, we are enough. We are more significant than just being a "1% minority" that has no business speaking because Eleshakai Eraia believes that we shouldn't feel as if we matter enough to do so.
Your attempts to "deflate" whatever you think you're trying to "deflate" will not work here, so how about you not care with the "silent majority," while I continue to care over here with the "minority," and simply agree to disagree. After all, if we're that insignificant, then you don't even need to bother.

No. We're not enough.

We're an opt-in sample with an EXTREME bias. We are NOT REPRESENTATIVE in any way shape or form. We are a VERY BAD statistical sample. Anyone who has taken statistics would look at this and find a thousand flaws with the idea of using these forums as representative.

It'd be like having a "Free Wine Tasting Day" and during it holding a "Do people enjoy wine?" survey. Of course your result is going to be unanimous. You have a narrow group with a very specific interest who have opted in to provide feedback.

The forums are like that - albeit not QUITE that extreme a bias. Even if you don't want to admit it.

Edit: That isn't to say our feedback DOESN'T matter. It does. But we're NOT enough on our own to make changes. They need to get a more holistic view of the population, of the game, and of the situation. They need to remove the bias from it so they can get an accurate picture. Our feedback is valuable, it's just not INDICATIVE. We're one piece of a puzzle. And you can't have the whole puzzle without every piece... but you also can't have the whole puzzle if you just have one piece.

[Stasya]

Typically, this thread was with all intents and purposes meant to serve as a way to express our grievances towards the Development Team and their lack of listening and discussion. There hasn't been an open discussion in years with Naoki Yoshida aside from FFXIV's Partners, such as MrHappy, Zepla HQ, MTQ, etc., who are all in line with keeping things positive and not bearing to express criticism. At times they have, but only in small ways that weren't broad strokes. Not to slander, but poking at certain things that get people's attention. They have asked sensitive questions in the Endwalker Tour because Healers have reached a boiling point, and it's going to boil over soon enough if things keep getting worse.

I doubt that these people will ever ask real questions since they want to be very nice (just like se whiteknights) and be part of media tour in future (more content for them). Im sure if they did asked about healers it was staged aswell.

FF14 going wow's route because of whiteknights defending SE at all cost.

[BrokentoothMarch]

-

No, you said our feedback doesn't matter. Don't try and shift the sand. You want your standard to be THE standard and said anything less can be ignored, don't you even dare try to backtrack. An ego matched only by the company that spites us.

You're about as insignificant as the rest of us, so settle down. Go enjoy the game is nothing we do matters anyways. I'd prefer you get your ego trip elsewhere.

[Shougun]

Edit: That isn't to say our feedback DOESN'T matter. It does. But we're NOT enough on our own to make changes. They need to get a more holistic view of the population, of the game, and of the situation. They need to remove the bias from it so they can get an accurate picture. Our feedback is valuable, it's just not INDICATIVE. We're one piece of a puzzle. And you can't have the whole puzzle without every piece... but you also can't have the whole puzzle if you just have one piece.

Mostly my response to you was because it felt like you were insinuating that, and likely painted this way given to seeing other people play make a much stronger point to the idea that (which isn't entirely fair but I am human ), "feedback is useless and none of it matters".

Naturally to blindly follow the feedback would be a mistake, but I definitely think there is a lot of value in it- and the bias, imo, can be cleared a little when you bring the whole picture together but also by understanding 'why' people feel certain ways (such that you might make your own educated solutions for it over "they said remove echo, so I removed echo, now they are mad at me- I don't get it").

I mean Yoshida has said before understanding why people feel a way is helpful, though it wasn't in context of statistical analysis lol.

[MilkieTea]

No, you said our feedback doesn't matter. Don't try and shift the sand. You want your standard to be THE standard and said anything less can be ignored, don't you even dare try to backtrack. An ego matched only by the company that spites us.

You're about as insignificant as the rest of us, so settle down. Go enjoy the game is nothing we do matters anyways. I'd prefer you get your ego trip elsewhere.

Can you point out where in their posts they said that our feedback doesn't matter? There you go again, letting your anger and vitriol read for you. I went through their posts and only saw them saying exactly what they said there, but in less words. "Our feedback is likely taken with a grain of salt because it is a biased sample." is the crux of what they're saying. Why can't you argue in good faith?

[Elesh]

No, you said our feedback doesn't matter. Don't try and shift the sand. You want your standard to be THE standard and said anything less can be ignored, don't you even dare try to backtrack. An ego matched only by the company that spites us.

You're about as insignificant as the rest of us, so settle down. Go enjoy the game is nothing we do matters anyways. I'd prefer you get your ego trip elsewhere.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. Never did I say we don't matter, I said we're not ALL That matters. Never did I say the forums weren't viable feedback, I said that they weren't the ONLY feedback that mattered. SO kindly stop twisting my words into something they're not.

I am saying a few specific things:
1) We're a minority.
2) We are a biased sample.
3) We are not the only source of feedback.
4) Because of 1, 2, and 3, it is perfectly reasonable if Square Enix does not always do everything we 'unanimously on the forums' think is correct for the game, as they likely have other feedback in an opposite direction.
5) Them NOT doing what we say doesn't mean they didn't hear our feedback.

[VirusOnline]

No. We're not enough.

We're an opt-in sample with an EXTREME bias. We are NOT REPRESENTATIVE in any way shape or form. We are a VERY BAD statistical sample. Anyone who has taken statistics would look at this and find a thousand flaws with the idea of using these forums as representative.

It'd be like having a "Free Wine Tasting Day" and during it holding a "Do people enjoy wine?" survey. Of course your result is going to be unanimous. You have a narrow group with a very specific interest who have opted in to provide feedback.

The forums are like that - albeit not QUITE that extreme a bias. Even if you don't want to admit it.

i am currently digesting food so blood flow is diverted from my brain
but i believe the word you're looking for is sample bias, but that doesn't mean it's inherently extreme or makes us non representative, or a very bad statistical sample

the great thing about these forums (at least NA) is that people are willing to argue and debate directly about what they don't and don't like
be us opt in or a sample bias - the same could be said for twitter
But let's remember - the moment ffxiv2bBooty.repo went missing and threads appeared here and on twitter - it got addressed
Same with male viera - which many people "opted in" to leave feedback and male viera is quite popular as we see today. IIRC there are more active male viera than female viera

opinions are often extreme here because more times than not a person will complain before they compliment *but* that does not mean there exists an extreme bias
regardless there will always be a percentage of error in any feedback platform

SE once did a survey on races that players preferred. If they want more accurate feedback then they need to sample better. It would be bad practice for SE to rely soley on the feedback here.

edit: if im right, WoW used an in game NPC to collect survey data from players about a new feature (Torghast), what better way to collect more representative informations ?

[Colt47]

Well, at the end of the day someone has to get paid to look through all the threads and other stuff being made on the forum. When the game was released around 2014 the forums were a different place and there was way fewer people. Now it is a bit of a zoo. Also, people got to stand out to be heard and typing out lengthy posts on a forum is not a good way to do it without resorting to some sensationalist title.

[HyperiusUltima]

Well, at the end of the day someone has to get paid to look through all the threads and other stuff being made on the forum. When the game was released around 2014 the forums were a different place and there was way fewer people. Now it is a bit of a zoo. Also, people got to stand out to be heard and typing out lengthy posts on a forum is not a good way to do it without resorting to some sensationalist title.

It's why I've tried to make titles more direct and to the point. That way the topic can be discussed more in-detail. Honestly, I've had the recent idea of merely a monthly Forum General Discussion Thread so they can look through it all and talk about things that they want in the game, or just discuss certain things that are either flooded or not regarded in other threads. It'd also be a way to compile feedback.

[Rolder50]

Does anyone have a picture of that slide from one of the fanfests where the developers point out that a complaint is worth more then a compliment? That it means that people still care, and if they didn't, they would just leave? Seems very relevant here.

Edit: I found it. Was actually a presentation at GDC 2014 (Game Developers Conference)



The whole presentation is here; https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020179/Behind-the-Realm

Seems they have forgotten a ton of the lessons they learned from 1.0 to me.