Is Pyromancer getting a perm ban for having Dalamud?

[KyraAu]

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

Curious how you think people are supposed to not talk about it when certain streamers are openly saying "I am going to stream this and talk about this anyway", such as the reason for this thread. Pyro quite literally said "I refuse to stop using (insert mod launcher name)" and then raging at people over an hour over multiple things, one of which was the console thing people are seeing because that's the only footage that's been revealed since he deleted his vod. This wasn't brought on him, some of these people are actively taking a stance about this.

Not talking about the very public actions taking place doesn't do anything really

[Hyrist]

Curious how you think people are supposed to not talk about it when certain streamers are openly saying "I am going to stream this and talk about this anyway", such as the reason for this thread. Pyro quite literally said "I refuse to stop using (insert mod launcher name)" and then raging at people over an hour over multiple things, one of which was the console thing people are seeing because that's the only footage that's been revealed since he deleted his vod. This wasn't brought on him, some of these people are actively taking a stance about this.

Not talking about the very public actions taking place doesn't do anything really

Perhaps. But Pyromancer's conduct is more of a Pyromancer issue than a 'mods in general' issue. He's holding an opinion and defending it rather venomously - that's separate than the topic itself - though it is indicative of the overall mood to draw distinctions between mods that enhance an individual's experience and mods that give a factual advantage to progression content.

Both groups defend that some of these features should be in the game to begin with, and it looks like Yoshida was forced to acknowledge that potential for the first time in his last post. However I'm of mixed feelings as to what should be implemented and what should be flatly enforced away from streamers.

Pyromancer's conduct was terrible, but I don't wholly disagree with the arguments. Cosmetics are benign. My only issue is that they're not in the game in the first place, and the risk that people put on themselves to enhance their experience when implementation of these features would likely not be complex at all. Especially if a layman can implement them.

[KyraAu]

Perhaps. But Pyromancer's conduct is more of a Pyromancer issue than a 'mods in general' issue. He's holding an opinion and defending it rather venomously - that's separate than the topic itself - though it is indicative of the overall mood to draw distinctions between mods that enhance an individual's experience and mods that give a factual advantage to progression content.

Both groups defend that some of these features should be in the game to begin with, and it looks like Yoshida was forced to acknowledge that potential for the first time in his last post. However I'm of mixed feelings as to what should be implemented and what should be flatly enforced away from streamers.

Pyromancer's conduct was terrible, but I don't wholly disagree with the arguments. Cosmetics are benign. My only issue is that they're not in the game in the first place, and the risk that people put on themselves to enhance their experience when implementation of these features would likely not be complex at all. Especially if a layman can implement them.

The issue with "cosmetics are benign" is it's literally a personal user discretion to what extent you are taking it beyond cosmetics. It's literally a few clicks to implement things that I'm sure you would agree are bad when you're already using the platform that enables you to do so. It's not really a gray area honestly, openly using the launchers that enable that and several modifications especially with the context of "this is technically okay" is just impossible for it to be the actual reasonable middle ground, because it changes nothing about the situation

You realize he had to remove a bunch of things recently because of this, he only has cosmetics now, but he had several other things before yesterday, that he openly said he removed YESTERDAY. He used to have markers before they changed that, he also up until yesterday had party debuff countdowns. He was very recently using more than just cosmetic, and now pretending he's taking a hard stance on only cosmetics. It's a bad faith argument from a bad place and regardless of how much good there is with QOL stuff being implemented, this is not something that should be supported or acted like is "simply their opinion". None of this is new.

[Hyrist]

The issue with "cosmetics are benign" is it's literally a personal user discretion to what extent you are taking it beyond cosmetics. It's literally a few clicks to implement things that I'm sure you would agree are bad when you're already using the platform that enables you to do so. It's not really a gray area honestly, openly using the launchers that enable that and several modifications especially with the context of "this is technically okay" is just impossible for it to be the actual reasonable middle ground, because it changes nothing about the situation

You realize he had to remove a bunch of things recently because of this, he only has cosmetics now, but he had several other things before yesterday, that he openly said he removed YESTERDAY. He used to have markers before they changed that, he also up until yesterday had party debuff countdowns. He was very recently using more than just cosmetic, and now pretending he's taking a hard stance on only cosmetics. It's a bad faith argument from a bad place and regardless of how much good there is with QOL stuff being implemented, this is not something that should be supported or acted like is "simply their opinion". None of this is new.

Then that's a line he should be judged on. You won't get an argument from me there. But again, I take his conduct, and his stances, as separate issues. I'd advice as such to anyone here to follow suit.

If he's been forced to change his stance on what he felt was strictly quality of life - which was a lot of what you just listed off. So much the better. You might call it a bad faith argument - that will depend on what goes back on the mod list once this whole fiasco cools down. But I don't subscribe to the 'slippery slope' argument because the first step itself is the violation. If you're a streamer, you're at risk no matter what you pick on a mod list. It's the degree of that risk depends on the degree of the mods. Pyromancer's behavior exacerbates the issue, but it isn't the issue. He's just more likely to get targeted and reported because he's been toxic about it. Let's see what happens once he's had time to think and reflect.

But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience. That's where all this gets dirty and muddy for me, and I don't like where we're at between the modded and unmodded experience is now. I think SE needs more focus on improving their moment to moment quality of life when it comes to the UI to ease that discrepancy. Ultimately that's the best approach.

He was basically trying to imply that its nearly impossible to play the game at high end without plugins or on console, and insisting that practically nobody does Ultimate on console which is just silly. And then he continues banning people who say otherwise.

That's just him falling into a tantrum, and being factually incorrect on that matter as a result. Consoles are part of the testing regiment when the dev team is forced to clear the content themselves before it's released. He's not been anywhere really in the endgame scene and seen the differences on how FFXIV does its endgame design and testing, compared to what he's previously used to.

[KyraAu]

Then that's a line he should be judged on. You won't get an argument from me there. But again, I take his conduct, and his stances, as separate issues. I'd advice as such to anyone here to follow suit.

If he's been forced to change his stance on what he felt was strictly quality of life - which was a lot of what you just listed off. So much the better. You might call it a bad faith argument - that will depend on what goes back on the mod list once this whole fiasco cools down. But I don't subscribe to the 'slippery slope' argument because the first step itself is the violation. If you're a streamer, you're at risk no matter what you pick on a mod list. It's the degree of that risk depends on the degree of the mods. Pyromancer's behavior exacerbates the issue, but it isn't the issue. He's just more likely to get targeted and reported because he's been toxic about it. Let's see what happens once he's had time to think and reflect.

But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience. That's where all this gets dirty and muddy for me, and I don't like where we're at between the modded and unmodded experience is now. I think SE needs more focus on improving their moment to moment quality of life when it comes to the UI to ease that discrepancy. Ultimately that's the best approach.

I understand you don't like the concept of "slippery slope" but it's pretty reductive to say that it is that, when the slipping around is being done right now, actively

you said "But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience."

I fully agree with that, that's where this whole thing comes into issue here for me.

Regardless of his personal feelings, he is actively advocating no matter what he says his stance is, or what his conduct shows. He is saying "This is okay, fuck you if you say otherwise". Including at the devs lol.

Any streamer right now actively streaming mods and saying "I should be able to do this, it's dumb otherwise" are taking stances. They are not private players, they broadcast the IP of SE in a state that is against the ToS objectively.

That is where the bad faith comes from. He specifically said he has issue with streamers being "Targeted, just because there's video evidence of them".

There does come a point where conduct and stance are inseparable man, not everything can be separated into bite sized issues



/e I'd like to add, before he even logged into FF14 yesterday, he openly said "I have to turn off everything in order to not get banned, I guess that's just how it is". And then about 30 minutes later logged in, showcased all of his mods and what they do, said he doesn't want to play without them, and then proceeded to play and talk shit with mods showing the whole time.

[Hyrist]

I understand you don't like the concept of "slippery slope" but it's pretty reductive to say that it is that, when the slipping around is being done right now, actively

you said "But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience."

I fully agree with that, that's where this whole thing comes into issue here for me.

Regardless of his personal feelings, he is actively advocating no matter what he says his stance is, or what his conduct shows. He is saying "This is okay, fuck you if you say otherwise". Including at the devs lol.

Any streamer right now actively streaming mods and saying "I should be able to do this, it's dumb otherwise" are taking stances. They are not private players, they broadcast the IP of SE in a state that is against the ToS objectively.

That is where the bad faith comes from. He specifically said he has issue with streamers being "Targeted, just because there's video evidence of them".

There does come a point where conduct and stance are inseparable man, not everything can be separated into bite sized issues

I think you're misinterpreting where I'm making that split. Which is odd because you're acknowledging the split here.

I really don't think we're disagreeing - so let's break this down again.

Pyromancer's broadcasting of Mods is a condemned of it, and a condemnation of the stance of the TOS. This makes him no different than someone else who uses similar mods and streams with zero toxicity.
Pyromancer's behavior in his previous deleted stream is an exacerbation of that stance - drawing more attention and ire his way.

Note that we're talking about one streamer over another, even though others are equally guilty of the violation.
So his attitude is a separate issue here. One makes the other worse. Had he calmly stated that he turne off what he thought was too dark of a grey area, and is choosing to take a risk with the remaining and left it at that, this likely wouldn't be an official forum conversation citing him personally as major factor.

[KyraAu]

I think you're misinterpreting where I'm making that split. Which is odd because you're acknowledging the split here.

I really don't think we're disagreeing - so let's break this down again.

Pyromancer's broadcasting of Mods is a condemned of it, and a condemnation of the stance of the TOS. This makes him no different than someone else who uses similar mods and streams with zero toxicity.
Pyromancer's behavior in his previous deleted stream is an exacerbation of that stance - drawing more attention and ire his way.

Note that we're talking about one streamer over another, even though others are equally guilty of the violation.
So his attitude is a separate issue here. One makes the other worse. Had he calmly stated that he turne off what he thought was too dark of a grey area, and is choosing to take a risk with the remaining and left it at that, this likely wouldn't be an official forum conversation citing him personally as major factor.

The reason I'm talking about pyro here is because this thread is literally about him, and he's the only person who's taken an aggressive stance about this since the first bans went out. That's the only reason. So we should just not talk about him until more people are doing the same?

" Had he calmly stated that he turne off what he thought was too dark of a grey area"

No, not really. Streaming any of the addons and saying "This is okay" when the developer said it is not, multiple times in the last few months, and even more times in the last 2 years (yoshi even said "don't use addons, we're not asking" in 2020) is not something that would be overlooked

the issue here IS the fact that he is openly taking a stance that some mods don't fit what SE says is ToS. That is untrue. Factually untrue. It's a bad faith stance for him to take, and anyone defending it as if it's reasonable just because of QoL etc is where that bad faith is enabling more of the same.

As I edited in my last comment,

"before he even logged into FF14 yesterday, he openly said "I have to turn off everything in order to not get banned, I guess that's just how it is". And then about 30 minutes later logged in, showcased all of his mods and what they do, said he doesn't want to play without them, and then proceeded to play and talk shit with mods showing the whole time."










His stream is going live right now titled as "Let's Talk" so I guess he's going to speak for himself here now. Lets see how this goes.