Is Pyromancer getting a perm ban for having Dalamud?

[Hyrist]

I haven't seen any calm discussions about this. Just reams and reams of "lol you have to ban everyone for using discord kekekek SE has gone to shit poggers"

A fair criticism, though some will enviably disagree with you there.

I'm more than willing to engage you on the topic in a balanced manner if you're up for it. I did post a breakdown on my opinions on the matter if you wanna look up and reply to them. I do think it's important to discuss the matter of the 'don't ask don't tell' policy and how it efects both the average player and content creators.

Right now, I'm emotionally divided but personally forced to acknowledge that Streamers and other public figures perhaps are to be held to a higher standard, although I'm not sure what that standard should be. "Don't talk about it." Relies on my previous discussed good faith between the players themselves and the game developers/game masters and we had that. But it unfortunately fostered people edging the rules and poking the bear until we got what we have now.

Are we back down to the point where content creators can't show it at all? There is a grey area we do have to maintain but 'don't talk about it' can be synonymous to 'don't show it' . And most content creators don't use tools so much as cosmetics.

[Seraphor]

A fair criticism, though some will enviably disagree with you there.

I'm more than willing to engage you on the topic in a balanced manner if you're up for it. I did post a breakdown on my opinions on the matter if you wanna look up and reply to them. I do think it's important to discuss the matter of the 'don't ask don't tell' policy and how it efects both the average player and content creators.

Right now, I'm emotionally divided but personally forced to acknowledge that Streamers and other public figures perhaps are to be held to a higher standard, although I'm not sure what that standard should be. "Don't talk about it." Relies on my previous discussed good faith between the players themselves and the game developers/game masters and we had that. But it unfortunately fostered people edging the rules and poking the bear until we got what we have now.

Are we back down to the point where content creators can't show it at all? There is a grey area we do have to maintain but 'don't talk about it' can be synonymous to 'don't show it' . And most content creators don't use tools so much as cosmetics.

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

[Hyrist]

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

Their showing of it does mark them as being complicit in the use of 3rd party tools as a whole, yes. I can see that perspective.

But there's a secondary issue here being presented. The use of Third party tools being tolerated on the level they are perhaps calming the more potentially vocal and influential elements of the base to pressuring the Developers to implement minor, but equally important quality of life improvements to the game. Again, I champion the idea of a chat bubble. But so long as 'people who don't talk about it' sate themselves with the 3rd party tool that provides it, the less we get an outpouring of support for it to actually be available in game for players.

See, I keep going back and forth on this issue because of these many myriad factors, and I think that's why we revisit this conflict periodically. Well, that and competitive endeavors like Ultimates and PVP.

[Seraphor]

Their showing of it does mark them as being complicit in the use of 3rd party tools as a whole, yes. I can see that perspective.

But there's a secondary issue here being presented. The use of Third party tools being tolerated on the level they are perhaps calming the more potentially vocal and influential elements of the base to pressuring the Developers to implement minor, but equally important quality of life improvements to the game. Again, I champion the idea of a chat bubble. But so long as 'people who don't talk about it' sate themselves with the 3rd party tool that provides it, the less we get an outpouring of support for it to actually be available in game for players.

See, I keep going back and forth on this issue because of these many myriad factors, and I think that's why we revisit this conflict periodically. Well, that and competitive endeavors like Ultimates and PVP.

There is no end to the potential harmless, cosmetic UI mods that other people can create for this game, and what SE themselves will have the time and resources to implement will not ever scratch the surface of what is out there.
While some of it could or even should be in the base game, they will never get all of it in there. Not only are there multitudes more people who can create mods than SE could employ, but SE have to hold their features to a higher standard. I've seen so many mods that just bug out and cause hideous graphical glitches that the users seemingly don't care about. Even Pyro has some kind of countdown cosmetic that just creates a big black square over a players head.
So using 'what is available as a mod' as justification for what 'should be in the base game' is never going to be a valid avenue. If it stands on it's own merits then it's worth pushing for, like chat bubbles, but at the same time, if it doesn't mesh with the games design and what the creators want for the game, it's not going to happen.

There's also the entirely valid argument that the creators do not want to imitate WoW to much, and chat bubbles could fall into that.
I've seen a lot of proposed UI changes over the last few days, and frankly, 90% of them are hideous recreations of WoW mods, which are a total mess.

[Hyrist]

There is no end to the potential harmless, cosmetic UI mods that other people can create for this game, and what SE themselves will have the time and resources to implement will not ever scratch the surface of what is out there.
While some of it could or even should be in the base game, they will never get all of it in there.
So using 'what is available as a mod' as justification for what 'should be in the base game' is never going to be a valid avenue. If it stands on it's own merits then it's worth pushing for, like chat bubbles, but at the same time, if it doesn't mesh with the games design and what the creators want for the game, it's not going to happen.

There's also the entirely valid argument that the creators do not want to imitate WoW to much, and chat bubbles could fall into that.
I've seen a lot of proposed UI changes over the last few days, and frankly, 90% of them are hideous recreations of WoW mods, which are a total mess.

No argument against the multitude of horrendous WoW-replicant UI mods out there that I can agree are horribly garish.

But I do think we're now in an appropriate phase in the game that SE spends some time and money investigating these popular mods, not just the UI ones for progression content, but the cosmetic ones as well, and try to implement a version of the more popular ones.

This isn't a new issue for sure, but I do think we're at a saturation point where it's time to reflect on the stance and make some actionable progression towards improving on it and the game as a whole. I know we're going to lose people over this issue and I'm at peace with that - but it should be a clear indication to the Developers that some items that don't exist on the priority list need to, and the ordering of them is worth shifting around a bit. The same UI team that took the time to give us the Job Gauges might need to be re-sorted so more can work on current-issue UI enhancements. And if that's not feasible alone, hire more staff, and then re-sort so you have some veterans leading the new team.

Yoshida did state that the walletbook has been opened a bit since the title is now the most profitable SE has. And given that the company wants to take some farily questionable and risky business endevors, it'd be a smart thing that they go the extra mile to secure the future of game that's keeping them afloat.

[KyraAu]

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

Curious how you think people are supposed to not talk about it when certain streamers are openly saying "I am going to stream this and talk about this anyway", such as the reason for this thread. Pyro quite literally said "I refuse to stop using (insert mod launcher name)" and then raging at people over an hour over multiple things, one of which was the console thing people are seeing because that's the only footage that's been revealed since he deleted his vod. This wasn't brought on him, some of these people are actively taking a stance about this.

Not talking about the very public actions taking place doesn't do anything really

[Hyrist]

Curious how you think people are supposed to not talk about it when certain streamers are openly saying "I am going to stream this and talk about this anyway", such as the reason for this thread. Pyro quite literally said "I refuse to stop using (insert mod launcher name)" and then raging at people over an hour over multiple things, one of which was the console thing people are seeing because that's the only footage that's been revealed since he deleted his vod. This wasn't brought on him, some of these people are actively taking a stance about this.

Not talking about the very public actions taking place doesn't do anything really

Perhaps. But Pyromancer's conduct is more of a Pyromancer issue than a 'mods in general' issue. He's holding an opinion and defending it rather venomously - that's separate than the topic itself - though it is indicative of the overall mood to draw distinctions between mods that enhance an individual's experience and mods that give a factual advantage to progression content.

Both groups defend that some of these features should be in the game to begin with, and it looks like Yoshida was forced to acknowledge that potential for the first time in his last post. However I'm of mixed feelings as to what should be implemented and what should be flatly enforced away from streamers.

Pyromancer's conduct was terrible, but I don't wholly disagree with the arguments. Cosmetics are benign. My only issue is that they're not in the game in the first place, and the risk that people put on themselves to enhance their experience when implementation of these features would likely not be complex at all. Especially if a layman can implement them.

[KyraAu]

Perhaps. But Pyromancer's conduct is more of a Pyromancer issue than a 'mods in general' issue. He's holding an opinion and defending it rather venomously - that's separate than the topic itself - though it is indicative of the overall mood to draw distinctions between mods that enhance an individual's experience and mods that give a factual advantage to progression content.

Both groups defend that some of these features should be in the game to begin with, and it looks like Yoshida was forced to acknowledge that potential for the first time in his last post. However I'm of mixed feelings as to what should be implemented and what should be flatly enforced away from streamers.

Pyromancer's conduct was terrible, but I don't wholly disagree with the arguments. Cosmetics are benign. My only issue is that they're not in the game in the first place, and the risk that people put on themselves to enhance their experience when implementation of these features would likely not be complex at all. Especially if a layman can implement them.

The issue with "cosmetics are benign" is it's literally a personal user discretion to what extent you are taking it beyond cosmetics. It's literally a few clicks to implement things that I'm sure you would agree are bad when you're already using the platform that enables you to do so. It's not really a gray area honestly, openly using the launchers that enable that and several modifications especially with the context of "this is technically okay" is just impossible for it to be the actual reasonable middle ground, because it changes nothing about the situation

You realize he had to remove a bunch of things recently because of this, he only has cosmetics now, but he had several other things before yesterday, that he openly said he removed YESTERDAY. He used to have markers before they changed that, he also up until yesterday had party debuff countdowns. He was very recently using more than just cosmetic, and now pretending he's taking a hard stance on only cosmetics. It's a bad faith argument from a bad place and regardless of how much good there is with QOL stuff being implemented, this is not something that should be supported or acted like is "simply their opinion". None of this is new.

[Hyrist]

The issue with "cosmetics are benign" is it's literally a personal user discretion to what extent you are taking it beyond cosmetics. It's literally a few clicks to implement things that I'm sure you would agree are bad when you're already using the platform that enables you to do so. It's not really a gray area honestly, openly using the launchers that enable that and several modifications especially with the context of "this is technically okay" is just impossible for it to be the actual reasonable middle ground, because it changes nothing about the situation

You realize he had to remove a bunch of things recently because of this, he only has cosmetics now, but he had several other things before yesterday, that he openly said he removed YESTERDAY. He used to have markers before they changed that, he also up until yesterday had party debuff countdowns. He was very recently using more than just cosmetic, and now pretending he's taking a hard stance on only cosmetics. It's a bad faith argument from a bad place and regardless of how much good there is with QOL stuff being implemented, this is not something that should be supported or acted like is "simply their opinion". None of this is new.

Then that's a line he should be judged on. You won't get an argument from me there. But again, I take his conduct, and his stances, as separate issues. I'd advice as such to anyone here to follow suit.

If he's been forced to change his stance on what he felt was strictly quality of life - which was a lot of what you just listed off. So much the better. You might call it a bad faith argument - that will depend on what goes back on the mod list once this whole fiasco cools down. But I don't subscribe to the 'slippery slope' argument because the first step itself is the violation. If you're a streamer, you're at risk no matter what you pick on a mod list. It's the degree of that risk depends on the degree of the mods. Pyromancer's behavior exacerbates the issue, but it isn't the issue. He's just more likely to get targeted and reported because he's been toxic about it. Let's see what happens once he's had time to think and reflect.

But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience. That's where all this gets dirty and muddy for me, and I don't like where we're at between the modded and unmodded experience is now. I think SE needs more focus on improving their moment to moment quality of life when it comes to the UI to ease that discrepancy. Ultimately that's the best approach.

He was basically trying to imply that its nearly impossible to play the game at high end without plugins or on console, and insisting that practically nobody does Ultimate on console which is just silly. And then he continues banning people who say otherwise.

That's just him falling into a tantrum, and being factually incorrect on that matter as a result. Consoles are part of the testing regiment when the dev team is forced to clear the content themselves before it's released. He's not been anywhere really in the endgame scene and seen the differences on how FFXIV does its endgame design and testing, compared to what he's previously used to.

[KyraAu]

Then that's a line he should be judged on. You won't get an argument from me there. But again, I take his conduct, and his stances, as separate issues. I'd advice as such to anyone here to follow suit.

If he's been forced to change his stance on what he felt was strictly quality of life - which was a lot of what you just listed off. So much the better. You might call it a bad faith argument - that will depend on what goes back on the mod list once this whole fiasco cools down. But I don't subscribe to the 'slippery slope' argument because the first step itself is the violation. If you're a streamer, you're at risk no matter what you pick on a mod list. It's the degree of that risk depends on the degree of the mods. Pyromancer's behavior exacerbates the issue, but it isn't the issue. He's just more likely to get targeted and reported because he's been toxic about it. Let's see what happens once he's had time to think and reflect.

But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience. That's where all this gets dirty and muddy for me, and I don't like where we're at between the modded and unmodded experience is now. I think SE needs more focus on improving their moment to moment quality of life when it comes to the UI to ease that discrepancy. Ultimately that's the best approach.

I understand you don't like the concept of "slippery slope" but it's pretty reductive to say that it is that, when the slipping around is being done right now, actively

you said "But that standard becomes more gray when a private player who's not broadcasting mods get a better experience."

I fully agree with that, that's where this whole thing comes into issue here for me.

Regardless of his personal feelings, he is actively advocating no matter what he says his stance is, or what his conduct shows. He is saying "This is okay, fuck you if you say otherwise". Including at the devs lol.

Any streamer right now actively streaming mods and saying "I should be able to do this, it's dumb otherwise" are taking stances. They are not private players, they broadcast the IP of SE in a state that is against the ToS objectively.

That is where the bad faith comes from. He specifically said he has issue with streamers being "Targeted, just because there's video evidence of them".

There does come a point where conduct and stance are inseparable man, not everything can be separated into bite sized issues



/e I'd like to add, before he even logged into FF14 yesterday, he openly said "I have to turn off everything in order to not get banned, I guess that's just how it is". And then about 30 minutes later logged in, showcased all of his mods and what they do, said he doesn't want to play without them, and then proceeded to play and talk shit with mods showing the whole time.