Is Pyromancer getting a perm ban for having Dalamud?

[Seraphor]

You guys are just making this worse.

The rules have not changed. How SE enforces those rules has not changed. It has always been a "don't ask don't tell" situation.

Bringing ToS violations to SE's attention forces them to act on them, because those same rules that prohibit UI overlays also prohibit botting, hacking, and add ons that give an unfair advantage such as automated callouts and markers, etc. and if they don't act on all reports, they can't justifiably act on any of them.

So... stop bringing attention to them.

Seriously, this whole debate, the multiple threads, namedropping streamers, the countless petulant, snarky jibes comparing innocuous Discord to literal games hacks, or accusing SE of being worse than the Nazis. Stop it.

[KyraAu]

Wouldn't call him unhinged. He was making objective points about how console is worse than PC and I'm guessing hes got a lot of console players that watch him, and he got irritated by them not understanding his point.

Though I will say he gets baited really easily.

You only saw the clip someone posted of 30 minute after his main rage. This stuff is literally 30% of his rage meter from the same day, when he was winding down how mad he was. And this is how it looked. Lol. He was absolutely closer to unhinged than you realize.

The topic about consoles was its own thing, and that started because someone said "console players can't use them so it's a disadvantage" and he said "do many people even play on console?" and he never read the chats telling him about the JP population being primarily console etc. Or conveniently ignored it, no way to know.


But before, he was RAGING at ANYONE who posed ANY question to his stance on "my addons don't give an advantage, so it's stupid to not allow me to use them". Anything you said that wasn't literally requoting that, ban and yell. Literally.

It was worse than that too honestly, the conversation from many people with good faith answering his questions were getting banned too, actually just flipping out hardcore. I've watched him quite a bit, and I know he's a bit of a rager because I knew him in WoW a bit too so it never was super surprising but today was genuinely the worst he's lashed at his chat that I've seen. Way worse than the clip that got posted (that he since copyright striked)

[Seraphor]

When Pyro started streaming I thought his content was neat. Then he raged once and I stopped following him. The last three times I checked on his videos to see if there was anything good going on, by coincidence or not he was raging on stream about one thing or another.

If I were one of his invested viewers and he was calling me an idiot on his stream I’d report him too. Alas I don’t watch people that treat others this way but it’s not surprising people are reporting him after viewing that video on YouTube someone posted here.

I'm in pretty much the same boat tbh. He's just not fun to watch when it takes him 2 hours of ranting to start every stream, especially the last one where he flat out said he hates console players.
None of this however justifies anyone in reporting him for using harmless mods.

[Hyrist]

You guys are just making this worse.

The rules have not changed. How SE enforces those rules has not changed. It has always been a "don't ask don't tell" situation.

Bringing ToS violations to SE's attention forces them to act on them, because those same rules that prohibit UI overlays also prohibit botting, hacking, and add ons that give an unfair advantage such as automated callouts and markers, etc. and if they don't act on all reports, they can't justifiably act on any of them.

So... stop bringing attention to them.

Seriously, this whole debate, the multiple threads, namedropping streamers, the countless petulant, snarky jibes comparing innocuous Discord to literal games hacks, or accusing SE of being worse than the Nazis. Stop it.

You're acting as if you can stuff the cat back in the bag. Sorry but that's now the system operates. Attention has been drawn. The discussion is here. Suddenly crying "Shh!" isn't going to suddenly change the facts. Take a moment and calm down. It's worth the discussion to weigh in on what we do with the extremes in this situation.

Calm people draw better distinctions in all situations. Regardless there are a lot of streamers who are far more prominent and they're likely not to duck and cover, even against recommendation. I expect a good number of people are going to wind up with suspensions and take a much needed break from FFXIV, before coming back to lots of people welcoming them. That too, is a reality for many.

[Seraphor]

You're acting as if you can stuff the cat back in the bag. Sorry but that's now the system operates. Attention has been drawn. The discussion is here. Suddenly crying "Shh!" isn't going to suddenly change the facts. Take a moment and calm down. It's worth the discussion to weigh in on what we do with the extremes in this situation.

Calm people draw better distinctions in all situations. Regardless there are a lot of streamers who are far more prominent and they're likely not to duck and cover, even against recommendation. I expect a good number of people are going to wind up with suspensions and take a much needed break from FFXIV, before coming back to lots of people welcoming them. That too, is a reality for many.

I haven't seen any calm discussions about this. Just reams and reams of "lol you have to ban everyone for using discord kekekek SE has gone to shit poggers" when literally nothing has changed apart from a bunch of people reported one high-profile streamer. It's literally screaming that the sky is falling.

At the very least, we should not be namedropping streamers in the context of what mods they're using.

[Hyrist]

I haven't seen any calm discussions about this. Just reams and reams of "lol you have to ban everyone for using discord kekekek SE has gone to shit poggers"

A fair criticism, though some will enviably disagree with you there.

I'm more than willing to engage you on the topic in a balanced manner if you're up for it. I did post a breakdown on my opinions on the matter if you wanna look up and reply to them. I do think it's important to discuss the matter of the 'don't ask don't tell' policy and how it efects both the average player and content creators.

Right now, I'm emotionally divided but personally forced to acknowledge that Streamers and other public figures perhaps are to be held to a higher standard, although I'm not sure what that standard should be. "Don't talk about it." Relies on my previous discussed good faith between the players themselves and the game developers/game masters and we had that. But it unfortunately fostered people edging the rules and poking the bear until we got what we have now.

Are we back down to the point where content creators can't show it at all? There is a grey area we do have to maintain but 'don't talk about it' can be synonymous to 'don't show it' . And most content creators don't use tools so much as cosmetics.

[Seraphor]

A fair criticism, though some will enviably disagree with you there.

I'm more than willing to engage you on the topic in a balanced manner if you're up for it. I did post a breakdown on my opinions on the matter if you wanna look up and reply to them. I do think it's important to discuss the matter of the 'don't ask don't tell' policy and how it efects both the average player and content creators.

Right now, I'm emotionally divided but personally forced to acknowledge that Streamers and other public figures perhaps are to be held to a higher standard, although I'm not sure what that standard should be. "Don't talk about it." Relies on my previous discussed good faith between the players themselves and the game developers/game masters and we had that. But it unfortunately fostered people edging the rules and poking the bear until we got what we have now.

Are we back down to the point where content creators can't show it at all? There is a grey area we do have to maintain but 'don't talk about it' can be synonymous to 'don't show it' . And most content creators don't use tools so much as cosmetics.

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

[Hyrist]

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

Their showing of it does mark them as being complicit in the use of 3rd party tools as a whole, yes. I can see that perspective.

But there's a secondary issue here being presented. The use of Third party tools being tolerated on the level they are perhaps calming the more potentially vocal and influential elements of the base to pressuring the Developers to implement minor, but equally important quality of life improvements to the game. Again, I champion the idea of a chat bubble. But so long as 'people who don't talk about it' sate themselves with the 3rd party tool that provides it, the less we get an outpouring of support for it to actually be available in game for players.

See, I keep going back and forth on this issue because of these many myriad factors, and I think that's why we revisit this conflict periodically. Well, that and competitive endeavors like Ultimates and PVP.

[KyraAu]

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

Curious how you think people are supposed to not talk about it when certain streamers are openly saying "I am going to stream this and talk about this anyway", such as the reason for this thread. Pyro quite literally said "I refuse to stop using (insert mod launcher name)" and then raging at people over an hour over multiple things, one of which was the console thing people are seeing because that's the only footage that's been revealed since he deleted his vod. This wasn't brought on him, some of these people are actively taking a stance about this.

Not talking about the very public actions taking place doesn't do anything really

[Seraphor]

Their showing of it does mark them as being complicit in the use of 3rd party tools as a whole, yes. I can see that perspective.

But there's a secondary issue here being presented. The use of Third party tools being tolerated on the level they are perhaps calming the more potentially vocal and influential elements of the base to pressuring the Developers to implement minor, but equally important quality of life improvements to the game. Again, I champion the idea of a chat bubble. But so long as 'people who don't talk about it' sate themselves with the 3rd party tool that provides it, the less we get an outpouring of support for it to actually be available in game for players.

See, I keep going back and forth on this issue because of these many myriad factors, and I think that's why we revisit this conflict periodically. Well, that and competitive endeavors like Ultimates and PVP.

There is no end to the potential harmless, cosmetic UI mods that other people can create for this game, and what SE themselves will have the time and resources to implement will not ever scratch the surface of what is out there.
While some of it could or even should be in the base game, they will never get all of it in there. Not only are there multitudes more people who can create mods than SE could employ, but SE have to hold their features to a higher standard. I've seen so many mods that just bug out and cause hideous graphical glitches that the users seemingly don't care about. Even Pyro has some kind of countdown cosmetic that just creates a big black square over a players head.
So using 'what is available as a mod' as justification for what 'should be in the base game' is never going to be a valid avenue. If it stands on it's own merits then it's worth pushing for, like chat bubbles, but at the same time, if it doesn't mesh with the games design and what the creators want for the game, it's not going to happen.

There's also the entirely valid argument that the creators do not want to imitate WoW to much, and chat bubbles could fall into that.
I've seen a lot of proposed UI changes over the last few days, and frankly, 90% of them are hideous recreations of WoW mods, which are a total mess.