SAM players are quitting

[YukiB]

The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

They are choices. Just because it's a mistake to do it doesn't mean it's not a choice. And taking away the ability to make that mistake is simplification.

[cjbeagle]

There's some nuance and detail I could argue with you, but that doesn't really pertain to whether or not Kaiten should come back. I've said it elsewhere - This is purely a gamefeel issue.

I'd be down to debate some nuance - let's hear your thoughts. fwiw I agree that it's almost entirely an issue of feel, though I do maintain that the complete removal of kenki management goes beyond feel.

I have nothing but apathy towards basically every physical DPS's repertoire of weaponskills, because they almost all fall under the same breadth of use despite their animation differences and their names, and I have nothing but active disdain for basically every weaponskill combo in the game.

This is actually my biggest problem with the changes to samurai - DPS is my preferred role and melee specifically over ranged, and samurai was the only melee I really enjoyed. I'm lukewarm at best towards most kits, so trying to replace samurai as my main has been more or less futile.

Out of curiosity, what is your favorite kit? (and why, if you care to elaborate)

[Alex1337]

You can just remove everything, by some people’s logic, and turn ffxiv into a calculator so that every job has 1 ability which does approximately the numbers which the developers want dps wise with no fluctuations and we would be balanced all would be well.

Breaking the game down to maths will do nothing but expose the fact that you could solve a lot of challenges by homogenizing everything give it a different name and make the game boring whilst making your job as a game designer extremely easy.

But that’s not why we play this fantasy game is it? And I’m quite confident the team at SE don’t want us be bored. Kaiten was trivial to an experienced SAM, yes, but it was a satisfying ability to use, subjectively players were enamored by the power-up effect which they had control over.

Belittling that subjective feeling is a kin to telling you, you don’t really like pizza you don’t need it - are some of you arrogant enough to believe you can tell SAM mains what they liked about the job they play?

[Flashy]

Lol. If it is strong damage wise why world first prog raiders for ultimate went with obvious choices like nin/drg/monk? Atleast thank god sam got 1 clear.

"Lol" I wouldn't know and will not speak for ultimate players. If you look at fflogs, it's very strong

[Stasya]

"Lol" I wouldn't know and will not speak for ultimate players. If you look at fflogs, it's very strong

You do realise that many people quit doing logs for good till 6.2 because savage is dead since first 5 weeks and/or ultimate? You do realise that the average of sam dps was nerfed in crit comp but what about max potential (i had pulls where in opener i barely scratched 2k dps above bis drk lol)? In this patch even not looking at ultimate sam just doesn't exist, it's nin/drg/mnk with occasional reaper. Yes, even in dead pf on Light i have already saw people locking out sam from joining (not reclears you know).

But w/e, you will probably will /tell "it's very strong please can i join" to people who will lock out sam in 6.2 if it stays same (not progress/reclears you know).

[butchersblock]

Because that's not feedback

That's whining.

Sounds familiar, almost like you're doing the exact same thing. Devs specifically asked for feedback, and you're here whining about it when you could instead choose to.. ignore something that doesn't affect you.
Oh except it does affect you, you're bitter over the fact that Samurai was meta for almost the entirety of Shadowbringers. Maybe you should spend more time getting better at the game than lashing out at people on the forums.

[Flashy]

You do realise that many people quit doing logs for good till 6.2 because savage is dead since first 5 weeks and/or ultimate? You do realise that the average of sam dps was nerfed in crit comp but what about max potential (i had pulls where in opener i barely scratched 2k dps above bis drk lol)? In this patch even not looking at ultimate sam just doesn't exist, it's nin/drg/mnk with occasional reaper. Yes, even in dead pf on Light i have already saw people locking out sam from joining (not reclears you know).

But w/e, you will probably will /tell "it's very strong please can i join" to people who will lock out sam in 6.2 if it stays same (not progress/reclears you know).

I'm aware that it comes out to about a 3% dps nerf in crit comps. I wouldn't know why world first teams aren't bringing a SAM, I can make assumptions but cannot speak for them. I definitely won't be telling people to let me into their parse groups if they don't want a pure dps that can't synergize with crit buffs. I don't get what you're getting at? Also it's all relative. I can't look at 6.0 logs and see how SAM is doing in 6.1 but they seem to be doing very well.

My original comment was about the playstyle and you're taking this one sentence completely out of context to try and discredit my opinion which shouldn't matter to you, it's my opinion that the damage is fine outside of crit comps, but the playstyle feels like a level 50 SAM in labriynth of the ancients

Also if you want to talk about 6.1 logs and how they are not competitive, which is fine, 6.1 SAM dps was already calcuated to be roughly the same (-3 dps) as our dps in 6.08, so 6.11 buffs definitely helped, but we still have anti-synergy with crit

[Stasya]

Also if you want to talk about 6.1 logs and how they are not competitive, which is fine, 6.1 SAM dps was already calcuated to be roughly the same (-3 dps) as our dps in 6.08, so 6.11 buffs definitely helped, but we still have anti-synergy with crit

I'm pretty sure no one cares about these buffs. Shoha buff feels like a joke, why would they nerf it in first place.

[DreadfullyAwful]

OP here! I'm really surprised how much thread blew up. I thought I would respond to a couple current themes I have seen crop up after reading through everything.

1) You're probably not even unsubbed

I have no plans of resubbing in the near future

2) You're just going to resub and are just stirring things up
I understand the cynicism. However, let me share some of my experience. I have been playing MMOs for 16 years, prominently WoW. They are my favourite game genre and something I play regularly. However, in particular from my experiences from WoW - you do learn to tell the intentions of developers for making changes. And the current job changes that have been happening in the recent years have not been in the best interest of the consistent players, but rather aimed at trying to retain the recent large spike new players that have played through the game since ShadowBringers.

This isn't about damage, numbers, yada-yada. It is about the feel of the game being changed to the detriment of long term players' experience, in the hope of increasing player retention after the expansion/patch cycle. And it is bad for the game in the long term. The worst part of it for me however, is the insincerity from the game director for the need of the now implemented changes. Additionally, there seems to be an internal bias for jobs within SE for which get simplified and which keep the core aspects that help them retain their integral class fantasy/feel.

Coupled with this, and the lack of job experience of 'job testers' that was revealed in recent interview with YoshiP when they were discussing how they were testing healer jobs, has allowed me and many others to conclude that these job changes aren't in the best interest of the core playerbase. Thus, this has led to many of us taking a step back away from FFXIV.

[FrogBiscuit]

The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

They are. Simple as that. You seem to be insisting on approaching this issue from the perspective that failing to play your class optimally is not an option... Which isn't realistic at all. Every class has effectively a strict ideal way of playing it. A optimized timing and button order that will be better then any other method, for any fight, and from the perspective you are presenting, none of them have 'options' in how they are played outside of that strict method (despite just two posts ago you were expressing 'Look at all these optimization choices you can still make.' in direct contradiction to what you are posting now).

You arn't really making any sense.

Kaiten falls under pass/fail. There is a right answer (Sword Draw enhance) and a whole lotta wrong answers (Using it with literally any non-Draw).

So in terms of optimization to improve your damage, Kaiten is already inconsequential, because where you use it is predetermined in almost all cases, and I use "Almost all" because you could make the argument that "I only have 20 Kenki, there's only time for one OGCD slot, and the only GCD I can press is Hakaze, and the boss is about to die / enrage right NOW" and that is...technically correct, and if you want to take that victory, by all means.

And then you effectively contradict yourself yet again in recognizing there is a 'right option' in regards to using kaiten, and a "whole lotta wrong answers" (indicating there are numerous ways to use kaiten correctly and the numerous incorrect ways) and in the next sentence illogically state that its inconsequential. The things you are stating don't match up at all. Heck, you even go out of your way to provide a accurate example of a scenario which support what I have been saying, of where you have to make a conscious decision regarding how you execute your rotation, effectively supporting the very position I am trying to express to you.

I am not trying to be obtuse or overly critical of what you are saying... Just that its entirely self defeating. You are elaborating on my very point and in the next sentence denying the very things you just stated simply as it being 'inconsequential'. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.



Yes, every last move in this game is a 'pass / fail' mechanic, with most having countless ways of not being used optimally. That is the very point I am expressing, why I am suggesting kaiten has more purpose then you imply, and considering the different areas of SAM game play it effects (kenki management, sen coordination, as silly as it would be to do - the countless moves that Kaiten is not supposed to be applied to) it most certainly had consequence and with far more engagement and thought required then spamming a move like shinten. The reasons you are giving to explain your perspective with are the very reasons themselves as to why kaiten was not inconsequential, the opposite of what you are claiming. Not only was kaiten not your standard, stand alone isolated move, but the very fact that it existed itself provided the SAM kit more variance then what it contains now. Plain and simple.


I am not trying to be dismissive or insulting of your point of view... But your very reasoning disqualifies what you are trying to prove. From what I can understand from your argument is that you just look at the game in a extremely simplistic light of: 'We all have buttons to press, why does it matter to you which ones you press?" I honestly haven't been able to unravel what you are trying to say from any other angle.