Been seeing a lot of doomsaying in forums/in-game lately

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Yeah, THAT's the problem with horrible design. Recency.

No, people are acting like this is new, and that things are going downhill and the game is dying, using examples of things that they perceive as new changes that have literally been around since 2.0.


Sure the game has issues. Actually qualify them though. Don't use "you don't need a healer in dungeons!" as a new issue to show healer design is a problem.

[Sebazy]

Sorry guess I should have specified current EX trails, didn't think anyone would believe we were discussing old unsynced content that sometimes can even be soloed by a healer.

Again

https://youtu.be/T6MvwQWBMVg?t=476

A regular party where both the healers died midway through. The remainder of the group merrily continued on and killed it without issue.

And before you say 'But they used Tank LB to survive the AoE stack!'....

Let's look a little closer at it.

8:58 - Shield Samba goes up
8:59 - Divine Veil goes up and Curing Waltz gets fired off early wasting the heal from both
9:00 - AoEs start hitting
9:01 - Shake it off goes up
9:05 - Tank LB3 goes off soaking the last two hits
9:06 - Mechanic done, no one died.

A few observations from that. The reaper and dancer came closest to dieing, everyone else was pretty safe.

If they had have had the full 8 people for the stack, it wouldn't have been nearly as close and secondly, they could have made it safer for themselves by not wasting Curing Waltz or the heal portion of Divine Seal early (That's 10k hp or roughly 20% of a HP bar wasted right there). I also suspect that no one used Feint looking at the scrolling text. That's another big chunk of mitigation gone.

No, people are acting like this is new, and that things are going downhill and the game is dying, using examples of things that they perceive as new changes that have literally been around since 2.0.


Sure the game has issues. Actually qualify them though. Don't use "you don't need a healer in dungeons!" as a new issue to show healer design is a problem.

I actually pioneered a lot of the no tank stuff back in ARR, case in point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5TDzbqfEAo

It got nerfed within weeks or less every single time. My Titan tanking method was nerfed to be impossible to do roughly a week later. The RamuhEX method of tanking with TitanEgi was hot fixed even faster.

People weren't doing one job clears on early ARR Hardmodes Extremes when they were fresh relevant content like they can now (I'll happily welcome a 2013 TitanHM one job clear if you can find one though). Compare Titan or Ramuh EX to the likes of Zodiark EX. Zodiark is flashier sure, but it's immensely forgiving and only really requires you to understand one mechanic. Beyond that you can simply follow the herd and get away with it. Endsinger EX is disappointingly close to being the same story too.

Extremes and Savage haven't been the same post Thordan and Midas. Not even close. Bosses barely tickle tanks compared to the damage even something like Caduceus used to put out.

[Cach]

Actually qualify them though.

That's what the super scawwy threads with the dreadful negativity are for?

Most only drive by to go "I don't feel that way, just unsub and go away" absolutely zero regard to actually understanding what's going on. Just a smug, empty dismissal.

[Minarisweet]

Guess you gotta make a forum post about it with no real purpose or whatever.

[WaxSw]

So you are saying that anyone at any gear level can just queue up without a healer and run something successfully? Tell you what just load up the party finder, join a EX run from it and tell them kick the healers and go all DPS and see if you clear.

Precisely I put Exs as examples of 1 healer scenarios and YES you can easily do them with just 1 healer and its not even hard, a lot of groups are willing to do that cause it speeds up the farm, for normal mode just take a tank and you'll see with your own eyes they can solo the vast majority of content in the game, in fact 1 tank and 3 dps expert dungeon farm is one of the easiest and fastest farms in the game and that can be extended to almost any dungeon.

But none of this is NEW.

You could do no healer runs of stuff back in arr. No tank runs too.

And all healer/all tank runs.


Literally nothing has changed.


I solod the 2nd boss in halatali hard on PLD from 80% back when it was current.

All job runs of alliance raids were a thing back then.

All job runs of ex fights became a thing later in arr.

Like... None of this is new....

The difference is:
-Back in previous expansions healers didnt have just 4/5ths of their kit designed to only heal and didn't have 2 button dps rotations so even if the heal requirements were low their kit was designed in a way that kept them engaged, now that doesn't happen
-Tanks didn't have that much sustain so it was way riskier

Right now tanks have so much sustain they're walking ambulances and healers have 2 button rotations which doesn't mix well with the way the content is created, thats the big difference that started in Shb and Ew expanded.

Previously as Pld you may be able to solo halatali's hard 2nd boss, right now as tank you can do the same while keeping your party alive and while thanks to the increased ilv some roles can be removed in some Exs later in the previous expansions right now we're seeing that when they're current we don't even have to wait to have better gear because the ratio of damage dealt/healing capabilities is more fucked than ever.

[Nethereal]

There is no reason to cry for changes when you are obviously the minority

I'll be using this argument from now on whenever a minority group says anything.

"I don't care you're a minority your problems don't matter, just move."

Edit:

Oh I'm not ignorant. I do more content than you and it's not what I'm seeing but keep pushing your agenda. Healers need to heal in the duties I'm in including myself.

Show us the receipts.

[Jeeqbit]

But none of this is NEW. You could do no healer runs of stuff back in arr. No tank runs too. And all healer/all tank runs. Literally nothing has changed.

I solod the 2nd boss in halatali hard on PLD from 80% back when it was current.

This is a point people seem to be missing. It's always been possible yet we are acting as if this is new. I was soloing bosses on a tank when the party wiped back in Heavensward and I solo'd the Halatali boss on PLD using Stoneskin and Cure as well.

I did an 8-PLD run of Thordan Extreme in Heavensward and we cleared it because we had 8 Divine Veil shields every 2 minutes, 16 Clemencies available at any given moment, 7 Covers available if the main tank was struggling and enough tanks for the tank swaps. We could all coordinate our use of Hallowed Ground for anything we wanted to do easily. It took us a few pulls but we got it perfect on the last one.

You can do a lot of ARR dungeons with 4 DPS if you bring the correct potions. It's probably easier to now with all melee DPS having Bloodbath, Second Wind, Arm's Length and Leg Sweep.

[IdowhatIwant]

What happened this thread turned into a battle between if healers are needed or not and reasons to justify healing being boring because people ran stuff in the past with out healers?

Healers are boring, people are not enjoying healing, the content doesn't fit the niche of requiring healers all the time. These are problems. Why would anyone sweep this to the side and say it's fine people did things with out healers before.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

What happened this thread turned into a battle between if healers are needed or not and reasons to justify healing being boring because people ran stuff in the past with out healers?

Healers are boring, people are not enjoying healing, the content doesn't fit the niche of requiring healers all the time. These are problems. Why would anyone sweep this to the side and say it's fine people did things with out healers before.

Healers are boring because...

Some say its because they only have 3 dps buttons. Some say its because they only need oGCDs to heal. Some say its because they are "homogenized". Some say its because healing requirements are too little.

How do you fix each of these in a meaningful way?

Make encounters have higher auto-attack damage on tanks, more frequent raidwides, harder hitting raidwides, targeted single player hits (missiles from A1S, A11s mechanics, that thing from T10). But if you do these, then that's less chances for healers to do damage, which means they don't need more DPS skills.

I find tanks boring too. They get more DPS abilities than mitigation and, well, tank role type abilities every expansion. I quit maining a tank in Stormblood because of this, having tanked all 3 tiers of Coil and 2 tiers of Alexander.

[Vryn]

God I love the forum everything just turns into this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSxQ...ab_channel=Bup