DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

[Saraide]

Yea, the problem is when people complain "y aren't u tanking? I'm taking damage"

With how aggro works in this game this is the easiest problem in the world to fix.

[Ronduwil]

DPS and healers pulling isn't really a big deal.

It's not going to wipe the party, but it's rude and inconsiderate. Maybe this is changing, too, but back in the day it was understood that as the player who was taking all the hits, the tank had the right to set the pace. Maybe with the modern day go go go mentality that has transformed the traditional dungeon crawl into a dungeon sprint this no longer holds true, but I'm sure there are still traditionalists like me who prefer to extend the courtesy of being the pace setter to the tank.

[EnigmaticDodo]

It's not going to wipe the party, but it's rude and inconsiderate. Maybe this is changing, too, but back in the day it was understood that as the player who was taking all the hits, the tank had the right to set the pace. Maybe with the modern day go go go mentality that has transformed the traditional dungeon crawl into a dungeon sprint this no longer holds true, but I'm sure there are still traditionalists like me who prefer to extend the courtesy of being the pace setter to the tank.

The tanks role is to take aggro. If a monster is attacking someone, regardless of if they pulled it or not, you do your role. They removed any semblance of having to work for your aggro, dungeons have been undertuned, you have exceptionally strong cooldowns (as do your allies). Not pulling everything is almost akin to trolling at this point of the game, imo, because of all the strength every single job has and the ease of the game.

Sorry my take differs. We can still have a discussion!

[pikalovr]

The tanks role is to take aggro. If a monster is attacking someone, regardless of if they pulled it or not, you do your role. They removed any semblance of having to work for your aggro, dungeons have been undertuned, you have exceptionally strong cooldowns (as do your allies). Not pulling everything is almost akin to trolling at this point of the game, imo, because of all the strength every single job has and the ease of the game.

Sorry my take differs. We can still have a discussion!

this right here is why me and like most other actual max level tanks are sitting here going damn we starting to see why tanking was dumbed down and is getting even easier hell we barely have to move bosses anymore in trials/savages

if the game was back during the era of enmity managament tank stance dancing etc... sure alot of these issues could be valid but it's quite literally hit your stance buton AOe each pack ranged attack any potentially missed mobs and go until you hit a wall pop your DR/healing CDs (spaced if needed) and AOE spam it's almost as if you can literally hit one DPS button and hold the entire group of enemies now

plus as been said before yes there will be times when their wrong and your wrong there's no mistaking htat but if they pull and bring it ot you or if they pull while you take a small break and don't die then why on god do you care what they do?

[EnigmaticDodo]

this right here is why me and like most other actual max level tanks are sitting here going damn we starting to see why tanking was dumbed down and is getting even easier hell we barely have to move bosses anymore in trials/savages

if the game was back during the era of enmity managament tank stance dancing etc... sure alot of these issues could be valid but it's quite literally hit your stance buton AOe each pack ranged attack any potentially missed mobs and go until you hit a wall pop your DR/healing CDs (spaced if needed) and AOE spam it's almost as if you can literally hit one DPS button and hold the entire group of enemies now

plus as been said before yes there will be times when their wrong and your wrong there's no mistaking htat but if they pull and bring it ot you or if they pull while you take a small break and don't die then why on god do you care what they do?

This is gonna be a pretty aggressive take, but maybe it's time they stop designing the game for the lowest common denominator. They seriously have gone out of their way to make this role accessible and easy for people and folks are STILL complaining about it being hard. I don't know what universe that difficulty is occurring in, but it's not this one. I don't know how much further they can simplify it for people who just continue not to get it...

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[Ronduwil]

Not pulling everything is almost akin to trolling at this point of the game, imo, because of all the strength every single job has and the ease of the game.

The many wipes I've recently had in Aurum Vale says differently. When you limit yourself to always playing with the best of the best, the game is of course going to be laughably easy. In mixed company, this is not the case. In fact, SE has even intervened to prevent excessive pulling at this point because of the crazy disparity in perspective between new players and veterans. Notice how the MSQ rework introduced a bunch of extra walls so that the group can't pull more than three packs before having to stop and fight to move on. The newest dungeons are designed similarly. I'm sorry that you perceive a slower pace as players trolling you. I can't speak for anyone else's intentions, but I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Some people prefer a slower pace, and that's OK by me. I'm flexible in that regard.

The modern consensus seems to be that those players should stick to trusts. Ironically, the same vocal set seems to also complain that the game is being overly casualized by making trusts available earlier in the game. It's like SE can't win with this community. I see the situation as a real shame. Ultimately it stratifies the player base to the point of creating a false perception of everyone's skill level. The best players end up playing exclusively with the best of the best, leading to this idea that the game is laughably easy and that anyone who isn't horribad is going to be bored with it after week 1. The less skilled players end up being forced to play solo just to be able to explore and appreciate the scenery on their first run through the dungeon, leading to quite the shock when they finally try to venture in to group content.

I personally feel that games are for fun, and I don't mind taking time to savor my fun. If I viewed this game as a miserable chore that had to be rushed through, I would just find something fun to do instead. That's why I'm playing this game now instead of running M+ dungeons in WoW. I just get annoyed when I see so much support for go go go dungeoneering because I saw where that philosophy took WoW, and I'd hate to see this game go that way as well.

[rewd]

The many wipes I've recently had in Aurum Vale says differently.

It's called "exception to the rule" for a reason.

[EnigmaticDodo]

The many wipes I've recently had in Aurum Vale says differently. When you limit yourself to always playing with the best of the best, the game is of course going to be laughably easy. In mixed company, this is not the case. In fact, SE has even intervened to prevent excessive pulling at this point because of the crazy disparity in perspective between new players and veterans. Notice how the MSQ rework introduced a bunch of extra walls so that the group can't pull more than three packs before having to stop and fight to move on. The newest dungeons are designed similarly. I'm sorry that you perceive a slower pace as players trolling you. I can't speak for anyone else's intentions, but I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Some people prefer a slower pace, and that's OK by me. I'm flexible in that regard.

The modern consensus seems to be that those players should stick to trusts. Ironically, the same vocal set seems to also complain that the game is being overly casualized by making trusts available earlier in the game. It's like SE can't win with this community. I see the situation as a real shame. Ultimately it stratifies the player base to the point of creating a false perception of everyone's skill level. The best players end up playing exclusively with the best of the best, leading to this idea that the game is laughably easy and that anyone who isn't horribad is going to be bored with it after week 1. The less skilled players end up being forced to play solo just to be able to explore and appreciate the scenery on their first run through the dungeon, leading to quite the shock when they finally try to venture in to group content.

I personally feel that games are for fun, and I don't mind taking time to savor my fun. If I viewed this game as a miserable chore that had to be rushed through, I would just find something fun to do instead. That's why I'm playing this game now instead of running M+ dungeons in WoW. I just get annoyed when I see so much support for go go go dungeoneering because I saw where that philosophy took WoW, and I'd hate to see this game go that way as well.

* Aurum Vales first room, and maybe 2 other dungeons (Bardams and Lv79 Dungeon) are exceptions to the 'pull everything' mentality. (There are approx. 85 dungeons, so 2.5% give or take of all dungeons are possibly an issue)
* I don't personally play with the best of the best. People at all skill/level ranges are capable of doing larger pulls on the tank side and healing it from the healer side.
* Mythic+, from what I've heard, doesn't even remotely compare to doing big pulls in 14. Comparing these two is honestly laughable, I'm sorry to say.
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You're free to perceive the game as being difficult, but seriously, all that is expected of you in Dungeons is; for example if you're Warrior; Overpower -> Mythril Tempest & cycle your defensives (Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Shake it off, Rampart, Reprisal, Arm's Length).

That is asking you to do a 2 Button loop and use 8 abilities one by one as their durations expire. Maybe using 2 of those 8 abilities at one point if you're taking a particularly large amount of damage. This is assuming level 90 of course, the lower you go, the less of those 8 abilities you have to worry about.

Is that really such a big ask? If it is, I do apologize. I do not intend to be disparaging, just wish to have a discussion. I want to understand your point of view.

(Note: There is an offensive rotation you could be doing as well with other OGCDs, but I'm talking about what's asked of you minimally.)

[pikalovr]

snip

the best of the best ok bud when i have sprouts that can wall to wall pull better than level 80+ tanks we ain't always playing with the "BEST of the BEST" we still have tanks at level80 and above that still want to single pull and mind you no there's not a first time player in here message either.

no the MSQ rework put it in line with modern dungeon design aka like 3-4 mob packs boss 3-4 mob packs boss 3-4 mob packs boss

trusts were created purely cause people wanted the you know COMPANIONS that we've been travelling with us to join us and yes it is seen as a casual player should use this if they want to go slow cause it's quite literally no conflicting viewpoints the NPCs only move as fast as you do just like faster players could also use it but it's still way slower than just having 4 humans run it not to mention roulettes are still a thing

i'm flexible as well unless it's post ARR content by then you should know your jobs role well enough to wall to wall pull if you can't even do that with how simplified the role is now tanking may not be for you (exceptions to the rule do exist of course like disabilities but those are understandable anyways and another reason why trusts are a great system to have implemented cause it's far harder to tell the difference between somebody who might be disabled and say like the guys in this thread who are griefing cause mister DPS used a ranged attack to pull before them)

also stop with the whole this divides the game some people legit just don't want to deal with others and there are even extremely competent players that run the trusts to ignore people. if you're shocked by the speed of current groups when you do for example hit HW that should be a wake up point that maybe i can be playing my role better if thats what's expected of me. stop coddling people just because they refuse to accept any challenge or get anxiety at the slightest difficulty

finally some people don't have hours to play this game and when dailies alone can take upwards of 2 hours to do for some roles it's almost as if there's a reason people want to get through content quickly

hell even i have multiple hours to play each day and think the amount of time needed to do my daily roulettes is a bit much. it's not even looking at it like a chore it's if you want to get through the mundane stuff and get to the fun stuff (fun is subjective so that's not even worth arguing for anything cause there will always be conflicting viewpoints regardless)

also wowhas something ffxiv doesn't actually engaging gameplay which is what makes speed running dungeons fun say what you will about blizzard acivision and their story and how they handle their fans but wow has had an extremely good and satisfying gameplay system

now compare that to FFXIV where as i said for a tank it's literally tank stace pull mobs using AOEs and sit there and spam one AOE til mobs died and you see why people want to wall to wall pull it makes stuff mroe engagin it keeps the healer engaged it gives the DPS more reason to blow their CDs making it more engaging for them etc... tanks actually ahve to move to avoid AOEs and have to handle higher damage input

there's far more that goes into why people speedrun dungeons than you give credit for

[Coletergeist]

I personally feel that games are for fun, and I don't mind taking time to savor my fun. If I viewed this game as a miserable chore that had to be rushed through, I would just find something fun to do instead. That's why I'm playing this game now instead of running M+ dungeons in WoW. I just get annoyed when I see so much support for go go go dungeoneering because I saw where that philosophy took WoW, and I'd hate to see this game go that way as well.

Well at least consider this; the *majority* of the playerbase has this go go go dungeoneering mindset and wants to get done with dungeons fast and not savor being in there longer than they have to be, because for the most part, it's not fun to do the same content we've ran a hundred to a thousand times. Sure, I may look around when there are brand new dungeons, but after I've ran it once, I go back in there to get something else like a drop or tomestones, as I'm sure goes for many other players. If you want to take a stroll through the park and savor your fun, do so not at the expense of other players that mostly want to just get the thing done.

It's *not* a chore to go fast, that's what makes it fun. If I have to heal a tank that wants to take that stroll and savor their fun, I'd be pressing one button and wouldn't have to heal because there's nothing else left for me to do due to the tank taking baby damage (and how tanks have self healing and also pop that because usually single pullers are also the "I'm scared and think the healer won't heal me through this very minimal damage so Imma heal myself). I'm sure DPS would rather also take down a larger mob than little ones throughout the dungeons. It's *not* fun to do small pulls; idk who finds that fun...sounds rather not fun.