DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

[rewd]

Personally I side with B.

1. DPS is doing wrong by pulling
2. Tanks need to adjust and save the day by compensating

Save the day by... Not AFKing? Because that's what you have to do in order to establish aggro. Thanks, I guess?

If getting aggro was a rather complex and annoying process, then yes, I would side with you, but this is not the game we are playing.

[Ath192]

Save the day by... Not AFKing? Because that's what you have to do in order to establish aggro. Thanks, I guess?

Pretty much. If waiting for the tank to pull was a rather complex and annoying process then I would side with the DPS, but all they have to do is get over themselves and wait. I guess thats not the game we're playing either though.

[rewd]

Pretty much. If waiting for the tank to pull was a rather complex and annoying process then I would side with the DPS, but all they have to do is get over themselves and wait. I guess thats not the game we're playing either though.

Dodging a question and false equivalence, a classic.
What does waiting for a tank mean? Pulling when a tank said "brb"? Pulling one second before a tank because you are a BRD? One does not feel like the other, although I believe this doesn't matter when arguing in bad faith.

Even though I fear you will probably skip these questions and say something unrelated again: what tells you clearly, unmistakably and unequivocally that a tank, and only a tank, should always pull?

Is it in the name? "Tank" does not quite carry that meaning, I'm afraid.

Is it in the gameplay? Maybe in another game. Enmity is a non-mechanic that requires you to not AFK.

What else? Is it determined by an unspoken rule - which we could describe as one of the most common symptoms of the anime main character syndrome - that somehow takes precedence over actually written rules that state quite clearly one should not manipulate enmity-related actions, engage in lethargic behaviour and aid the enemy?

[Ath192]

Dodging a question and false equivalence, a classic.
What does waiting for a tank mean? Pulling when a tank said "brb"? Pulling one second before a tank because you are a BRD? One does not feel like the other, although I believe this doesn't matter when arguing in bad faith.

No sir. I don’t dodge questions. So don’t misinterpret. I’m all about the truth. And was merely pointing that your statement can be applied to both sides of the argument. Making it redundant. In fact I could be wrong if some sort of conclusive evidence proves DPS have always been the intended pullers in this game. It’s about establishing norms.

Now onto your direct questions with direct answers.

1. Waiting for a tank to pull means… well waiting for the tank to hit the mob first. If the tank AFKs it is customary to wait for them unless they say go ahead without me. Same with other party members really. Both do feel like the same imo, since you can delay your GCD by 1 second. But if the tank was already pulling that won’t likely raise any eyebrows.
2. Why a tank should always pull on FFXIV - I don’t know if they should, hence I proposed to ask. However, using logic and math tanks have ranged attacks, enmity generation AOEs and high defense making them statistically speaking the most resilient and well equipped class to pull.
3. It is in the gameplay, several dungeons have very hard hitting mobs that can take out DPS in three to five hits. The first one that comes to mind is bardams mettle. Having a dps pull with an inexperienced healer could easily divide his attention and a wipe could ensue since tanks lose their health rapidly in that dungeon.
4. It may be an unspoken rule. But I don’t think it should be. Hence an official statement or guide would be helpful.
5. This can apply to the dps as well, aiding the enemy could easily encompass a DPS pulling and splitting the healers attention thereby causing a wipe. Not everyone has max ilvl gear and knows how to weave Ogcd heals in properly and you’d be surprised how many new tanks don’t mitigate well.

So now I have questions for you.
1. Why do you think I argue in bad faith? Do my questions not stem from logic?
2. What mathematical/statistical merits do you think make DPS the better pullers? -I’m bored and impatient aren’t statistics.

[rewd]

So now I have questions for you.
1. Why do you think I argue in bad faith? Do my questions not stem from logic?
2. What mathematical/statistical merits do you think make DPS the better pullers? -I’m bored and impatient aren’t statistics.

"If the tank AFKs it is customary to wait for them unless they say go ahead without me". No, if someone AFKs, it is customary to wait for them. The role they play is completely irrelevant, which is why you should be more precise on what "waiting for the tank" actually entails.

1. Because you dodged my question and came up with a false equivalence. You are still arguing in bad faith because there is no way you could read the previous replies and deduce "Yep, these guys are saying that DPS/healers should actually always pull and that they are objectivelly better equipped to do so". What we are saying is that who pulls ultimately doesn't matter.
2. Wrong question aside (see my previous reply), we do have reasons as to why a DPS pulling is not the end of the world/optimal. Some DPS have Arm's Lenght, which is (also) a mitigation tool. Pulling a group of enemies, letting AL pop and letting the tank take over is optimal. DPS also have cooldowns and buffs to keep up. Should a BRD lose a fully charged Pitch Perfect because they can't pull? Should a DNC lose a Standard (or worse, Technical) Step because they can't pull? Dualcast? Summon charges? And so on? For no good reason at all?

4. It may be an unspoken rule. But I don’t think it should be. Hence an official statement or guide would be helpful.

This doesn't make sense. You think a tank should always pull - valid, it's your opinion. We are debating. There's is no official statement nor guide that speaks against a non-tank pulling. We have, however, an official statement that clearly says that behaviour you are condoning in this very topic is forbidden/reportable. So what gives?

[Ath192]

"If the tank AFKs it is customary to wait for them unless they say go ahead without me". No, if someone AFKs, it is customary to wait for them. The role they play is completely irrelevant

Did you read the rest of the sentence? I'd say this was selectively clipped in bad faith...

We have, however, an official statement that clearly says that behaviour you are condoning in this very topic is forbidden/reportable.

I gave you examples of how a DPS pulling could be perceived as aiding the enemy. So the rule isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. Are you also choosing to ignore that?

Some DPS have Arm's Lenght, which is (also) a mitigation tool. Pulling a group of enemies, letting AL pop and letting the tank take over is optimal.

No.... Its not lol. in an optimal scenario a tank hits sprint lands an AOE on each pack until they reach a natural wall. Getting the DPS to pull off arms length on 2 packs of mobs and then having the tank get aggro off him before the dps dies would be a bit of a nightmare. Especially because that ability sometimes has a weird delay and doesn't go off on the first hit. Not to mention tanks also have them and you would be burning some of the healers OGCDs on the DPS unless they choose to leave him with 30-40% HP

[rewd]

Did you read the rest of the sentence? I'd say this was selectively clipped in bad faith...

More like "Posts have a character limit and I don't have to post a comment and then edit it to circumvent the issue because people with good arguments don't need to nitpick and deviate attention". Clearly I was wrong.

I gave you examples of how a DPS pulling could be perceived as aiding the enemy. So the rule isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. Are you also choosing to ignore that?

"Imagine you are in Bardam. Imagine there is a DPS pulling. Also imagine that the tank is apparently in Narnia, busy on the toilet because they can't take aggro. Also imagine an inexperienced healer that have their attention this divided [between what?]. Checkmate, undeniable proof that the ToS is unclear because reasons.

I appreciate the creativity, though. Also, you either aid or don't aid an enemy. There is no such thing as "perceived aid".

No.... Its not lol. in an optimal scenario a tank hits sprint lands an AOE on each pack until they reach a natural wall. Getting the DPS to pull off arms length on 2 packs of mobs and then having the tank get aggro off him before the dps dies would be a bit of a nightmare. Especially because that ability sometimes has a weird delay and doesn't go off on the first hit. Not to mention tanks also have them and you would be burning some of the healers OGCDs on the DPS unless they choose to leave him with 30-40% HP

It is optimal, you are arguing that it is hard to pull off (which is... funny), not that it isn't a benefit. Not only DPS have ways to heal themselves (especially melee), but:

a) unless you play with comatose monkeys, a non-tank sitting at 30-40% HP during a pull (assuming they even get that low...) should hardly concern you as they are not meant to take damage
b) they will be healed by incidental AoE healing (Assize, Earthly Star, Whispering Dawn, Physis, just to name a few)
c) you can commit the cardinal sin of getting good™ and put regen/shield on them before the pull starts

PS: you are dodging questions again. We are way past the point where I think you might just be missing them in good faith.

[Coletergeist]

So now I have questions for you.
1. Why do you think I argue in bad faith? Do my questions not stem from logic?
2. What mathematical/statistical merits do you think make DPS the better pullers? -I’m bored and impatient aren’t statistics.

I mean, the logic is sort of already here in this thread, is it not?
Sure, tanks have higher enmity skills and higher defense, but that doesn't mean that when dps or healers pull, they can't just grab that aggro if it's brought to them. It's...really not that deep my friend. This isn't algebra.

[Ath192]

I mean, the logic is sort of already here in this thread, is it not?
Sure, tanks have higher enmity skills and higher defense, but that doesn't mean that when dps or healers pull, they can't just grab that aggro if it's brought to them. It's...really not that deep my friend. This isn't algebra.

Edit... *I'm* not arguing that though. You just said something almost everyone universally agrees with. Its the DPS pulling and thinking they are in right for it that I don't buy. Granted high ilvl players and vets can trivialize things but imo its a bad take when the game combines high and low skill players by design. People only like seeing the perspective that best suits them..

[Coletergeist]

People only like seeing the perspective that best suits them..

This is ironic.