Healers need an overhaul

[Nethereal]

sage feels different not because of the dps but because unlike whm it has like... actual heals to manage. sure, i still fall asleep on the wheel on sage but at least i have icarus and kerachole and cardia swapping to keep your attention.


it doesnt feel the same as whm unless there is absolutely 0 healing needed (meaning it probably only feels the same in like. expert roulette or p1s)

Sage to me before the lily changes has always been: SCH but different, WHM but good.

[ForteNightshade]

Good players can do this, but i am not a good player, i won't get better. When there was not much content and story anymore for me in WoW, i tried FF14 and now i am happy to have back lot of more easy content with a lot of story. I just do normal dungeons, i leave more difficult runs as savage and ultimate for the better players.
So maybe expert, savage and ultimate runs should be more a challenge for heal as well, but this can be done without more dps buttons.

Except you have the option of Trusts, which is being expanded on this entire expansion for every piece of story content. We don't have an alternative. Every single dungeon can be entirely solo'd by tanks. Even Dark Knight, a tank with minimal self sustain, can and has solo'd dungeons. P1 Savage has been cleared without healers. And no I don't care of the excuse, "they make the first tier easier!" There's easier and then there's making an entire role borderline irrelevant. Dragonsong is mere days away and I guarantee you both healers in every decent static will eventually clear while having pressed the same two buttons more than every healing GCD in their kit combined. Hell, even with adding oGCDs, it still likely won't be able to beat how often they'll be spamming 111111111111111

This also has nothing to do with you being good or bad. As a Warrior, I literally don't need you in a dungeon. Any Endwalker dungeon and you, as a healer, are completely irrelevant. I actually heal AoE pulls better because Bloodwhetting is essentially AoE Benediction. You could quite literally do /sit at the beginning of Smileton, go make a sandwich, maybe do some household chores, and come back to a cleared dungeon. You being a good player or not makes zero difference because tank sustain is so incredible. And before anyone brings up Warrior being OP. Every tank can do this. Dark Knight needs a little help to keep up speed wise but they can all run through EW dungeons without a healer. That isn't easy mode. It's toddler's first MMO levels.

Which is to highlight the fundamental problem with FFXIV's healing design. We have reached a point where the entire role borders on relevancy. The hilarious irony is the only thing keeping two healers in a Savage comp is the very website the dev team hates: FFlogs. In order to rank, you must run 2T/2H/4D otherwise your logs get moved to "Non-Standard". If this ever changes to allow solo healing to rank under "Standard", every single good static will force one of their healers onto a DPS. There is not a single fight in the current raid tier that can't be solo healed.

A bit sad when the only thing holding this broken design together is a third party website.

[rewd]

It will be fine if one or two healers have simple rotation

This is only fine if you give some healers more complex DPS kits while the rest of the healers get a simpler rotation and something else to compensate, like buffs and debuffs. Arbitrarily choose some jobs and deprive them of complexity is always bad design and shouldn't be pursued.

[MiaShino]

One thing causes most confusion and boggles the mind about these threads.

If the hyper-casual healbot never interacts with the deeps portion of their kit (and they do not), how does increasing the complexity of these options raise the skill floor?

Many healers often never touch buttons beyond cure 1. You could add fifteen dps buttons and class complexity would never change for them. Healbotting tis not even new concept to FF14 neither is healer deeps. I did booku damage in Aion and when moving to Swtor I did constant damage there while playing health chicken. Both Aion and Swtor were nearly pure gcd healing too.. still had time to dps.

Failed experiment over now give us some darn class complexity please.

[Deceptus]

Here I present you the new healer tutorial in FFXIV :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlc-...4M_18NhpPR3ojs

This is equally infuriating as it is sad.

[MiaShino]

This is equally infuriating as it is sad.

Same same can be done for current dungeons too; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5cjebgV9A

Nothing makes you excited to main a role like being completely irrelevant.. He even wall pulls..

[currentlemon]

Here I present you the new healer tutorial in FFXIV :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlc-...4M_18NhpPR3ojs

This is just sad.

[Ravor]

Sorry, i didnt elaborate more detail concerning my post, i simply share my experience with some gameplay that actually make healer do heal and it concern either the mobs or bosses are stupidly strong that tank cant even survive more than 3 hit without healer OR nerf all self mitigation or self heal by all class even tank to the point that without healer you cant survive anything at all, this kind of environment will make the game significantly stressful altogether....... in my opinion, it is very hard to find middle ground here, either keep the gameplay like what it is now or make the game more stressful altogether, in my opinion, the middle ground would be harder encounter on extreme and savage difficulty, but even now i think less than 40% player actually do savage? Or even extreme? I think the dev made healing easier is also part of their intention to encourage player to do savage and extreme, this is just simply my personal opinion

[MiaShino]

Sorry, i didnt elaborate more detail concerning my post, i simply share my experience with some gameplay that actually make healer do heal and it concern either the mobs or bosses are stupidly strong that tank cant even survive more than 3 hit without healer OR nerf all self mitigation or self heal by all class even tank to the point that without healer you cant survive anything at all, this kind of environment will make the game significantly stressful altogether....... in my opinion, it is very hard to find middle ground here, either keep the gameplay like what it is now or make the game more stressful altogether, in my opinion, the middle ground would be harder encounter on extreme and savage difficulty, but even now i think less than 40% player actually do savage? Or even extreme? I think the dev made healing easier is also part of their intention to encourage player to do savage and extreme, this is just simply my personal opinion

Support has always had lower engagement then other roles because of perception of it being high stress. You can see this from Overwatch to FF14. Even now with all these many changes deeps queue times are still ridiculously long on Primal (watching friends riiiiight now in sixteen minute queue).

What developers should understand is that type of person willing to play role vital to the parties survival then main that role does not think like most other players. Most of us experience the happy chemicals when we succeed despite adversity. For those moments when you recover from near tpk, at the least I do. That one clutch heal, that clever utilization of party buffs to circumvent what should have been one shot mechanic. We enjoy the "high stress" that oft comes with playing healer.

When you strip all of this away you are left with a role that veteran healers no longer wish to play and casual healers never wished to play in first place. Eventually the role dies and the lesson developers take from this is; "Welp! No one is playing healer thus no one wishes too so yeeeet boy!". It is why true support is fading from most major cooperative games. One of the reasons I am here playing FF14 is because it has support classes and proper holy trinity...

Dev team makes content do able without healers so that should you roulette with bad healer you can still clear. This is.. awful design. Can understand their fear of players failing to complete content as those players tend to be particularly loud but still.. please.. by the twelve stop. Healer - Support is not for everyone and this is okay! There are many many other jobs for those types of players.

[Alaray]

Good players can do this, but i am not a good player, i won't get better. When there was not much content and story anymore for me in WoW, i tried FF14 and now i am happy to have back lot of more easy content with a lot of story. I just do normal dungeons, i leave more difficult runs as savage and ultimate for the better players.
So maybe expert, savage and ultimate runs should be more a challenge for heal as well, but this can be done without more dps buttons.

I'll preface by saying this: It's fine if you're not very good at the game, and don't really want to get better when the primary content you do is story/normal things. But if you already know you don't play healer to a really high - or mid - level, and just kind of a "I can get through dungeons/story content just fine", why do you feel like adding some more complexity for the Job's skill ceiling would affect you? If you're in on the Job's skill floor, which wouldn't really change even with a more involved DPS rotation, as the skill floor with a healer is often "don't let people die to unavoidable damage", which is to say: a change to DPS involvement on a class wouldn't be something you need to concern yourself with, unless you wanted to, since you'd still be able to do exactly what you do now to complete the content you do.

None of what I'm saying is meant to come off mean, rude or anything -- but I am genuinely a little lost with your perspective and argument? I could see if, say, healing was integrally tied into a complicated DPS rotation wherein you could not heal unless you're executing your rotation well, but if a 0 Damage Dealing healer player can clear all content now, just fine (excluding content with Enrages, for the most part), I don't see how making the DPS portion more involved would hurt that sort of player (especially since, when it comes to dungeons, the AoE damage would likely simply be the same anyway -- with Holy/Misery and Assize in WHM's case). If you're more inbetween, like you do try and do some damage and worry having more of a rotation would make it more stressful -- I mean, realistically? Break the combos, freestyle it here and there, cancel casts to move and so on. Dungeons/Story/Normal content has no actual DPS requirement to clear them, so let yourself make however many mistakes you need.

I can shift to using myself as an example -- I can play classes to a somewhat higher level if I want to and if I care to put in the work to do that, but for the most part whenever I'd pull out an alt-job I'd just kind of go with the basics (so, in Shadowbringers, my Tsubame on Samurai wouldn't line up with buffs and could end up in Who Know's Where with my rotation, since I'm basically playing the job at a closer to skill-floor level than not. Or when I tried to get into BLM and was a travesty in every dungeon people ended up with me in). Those two jobs have (or, at least as I'm speaking of the SHB versions) a lot of little tricks, and a lot of bigger than little tricks, they can do to maximize their output. But, I could ignore all those tricks and do passably in most cases. Trying to keep a perfect loop on Samurai so Tsubame never drifted wasn't something I concerned myself with, even though it was there and in the game (and, by extension, if I /wanted/ to deep dive into these classes there's a lot to learn and a lot of ways to improve, which is something I do find a lot of fun in any game I play).