Hissatsu: Kaiten

[baklava151]

Nerfing SAM's Kenki generation would just make it suck if you didn't buff it elsewhere, which I don't know how you'd buff it enough to make up for the massive damage nerf from having less gauge without making it overpowered.

I don't know what the exact numbers would be but I'd imagine they could buff Shinten relative to how much less you use it. I'm sure they could figure something out if they actually went that route.

[Ransu]

The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

I mean that's a issue with the combination of direct hit and crit. Honestly the direct hit stat could be easily removed from the game and it would solve a lot of problems. Its really only there to give players a different stat to play with over det and crit.

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

This isn't a problem exclusive to Midare or SAM... Just ask how Ninjas feel about their Hyosho which is something upwards of 1600 potency just from NIN's own buffs alone that will always be there for it, and when it doesn't CDH in the opener it feels terrible, the problem is not that these high pot abilities don't CDH, the problem is that CDH just suck as stats, they're boring, they're too strong, it's out of operator's control whether your ability will decide to do more than double damage or not, crit increasing abilities like Chain are so weak they feel like placebo and so on, the devs are correct in recognizing the symptom but they're missing the forest for the trees...

[MiaShino]

@ Above poster; That's what I don't get. Why do people think the job has resource management? It straight up doesn't. It didn't even in Shadowbringers.

Alrighty, say I agree. Then why do I have this giant tumor on my hud? While Square is at race to the bottom why not remove the job gauge? The fact we are even discussing resource management being irrelevant is problem in and of self. If anything it shows exactly how poorly the developers have handled job complexity. Pointless systems giving the illusion of complexity.

Notice how before the perplexing announcement to remove Kaiten, not a single person out there was saying things like “wow kaiten should be removed it’s a useless skill” or “I don’t like doing kaiten they should just bake the damage in”. It was just an accepted part of the job. But now that the devs announced their intention people have come out of the woodwork to defend the choice.

During previous live letter Yoshi P stated that enochain was removed because variance between those who maintained proper uptime and those who did not was too great. Eventually you will be able to face roll keyboard and hit golden numbers on the forbidden website. The goal appears to be decrease variance between low skilled and high skilled players across all jobs.

They need to knock this off. Some are just not as good as others. This is fact across all walks of life. You either accept that reality or you do not. You cannot make everyone as good as everyone else at everything.

Will never be as good as friends and family at RTS. I do not ramble incoherently on Blizzard forums about Zerglings being underpowered when my opponent builds Marauders because I refuse to build Roach Warren or Spire.

[Enjuden]

I know and understand why players are upset. I'm among them, but have felt SAM has gone awry since 6.0. The downward spiral hit me in the gut with the decision to remove Seigan. I underestimated just how much this would impact how SAM feels in combat. Removing Kaiten will no doubt impact how SAM feels even further.

That's what leads me to my main issues with SAM. They are stripping the job of what wasn't even a problem, and have added what no one was even asking for. The removal of Kaiten by itself is not the issue, it's the decision to fix what wasn't even broken.

Come to think of it, I actually miss Seigan a lot. It didn't add much for damage but I liked the feeling of using it even if it was just a contest of how mad you can make your healers in raid. It's not the first time SE decided to randomly remove skills from Samurai, like Hagakure which got added back the patch immediately after. I doubt they'll add Kaiten back in if it's removed though unless JP continues their vocal outcry.

Either way, I misread the intent of your post.

[Faafetai]

Also Im starting ot believe people are straight up jumping to defend no matter what this decision since a lot of people are just saying "it doesn't add complexity"... yet the post itself said its not about that. Just repeating the same thing over and over and pretending other people are idiots for not knowing this is insulting.

It will remove literally the only thing at level 60 that allows the job to have some thought within it. I really don't care how it feels at 90 right now for me personally. Right now it looks like from reading the skills you spend your gauge on 2 things which are each I think a 2 minute window and one other skill you just I guess spam now and movement. I could be off base I am only at level 60 and was really enjoying the job but this might kill it for me. I will have nothing but the movement skills to use the gauge on so no more buffing Higianbana, Meikyo Shisui, or Midare Setsugekka nadda. Even if they buff those skills with Hissatsu: Kaiten passively as an ability it kind of takes the thought of what to use the skill on at that level. It will be (1,2,3), (1,4,5), (1,6) Midare in single target when Meikyo Shisui is off cooldown.

Just remove meditate and the gauge until whatever level at this point it is useless and not worth it to have there anymore. It just makes me upset I finally get to 60 get a job mechanic I can think about and it just get it taken away so I am literally doing the same rotation now at level 60 I was doing at level 50. There will literally be nothing different. It makes me angry because I know the devs are not playing through the leveling experience or thinking about how people are learning the job. They just edit their level to 90 and go from there. If you want to change things at 90 go for it but don't just remove a skills. And no square I am not buying a jump potion if that was the intention for most of these changes.

Misshapenchair hits the nail on the head with why the changes make Samurai and less interesting and well designed job:

https://youtu.be/XIHj-1_Yn1U

I really liked his video and he put the changes in to words better than I ever could. I wish I got sam up to 90 already but have not so I have no clue how it feels at 90. I know the devs just wont give a damn and do whatever they want and never read these forums it just makes me watch as every skill is altered without any thought put into it. They have a board with all the job skills and just close their eyes and whatever it lands on today is the skill removed.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

1. Use meditate during downtime.
2. Party buffs come up naturally when you reapply your dot and use ogi, so you'll have Ikishoten
3. Dunno how AST cards have anything to do with SAM Kenki Management. AST Cards are RNG so you can't possibly plan for when you get a melee card. Unrelated but I play AST too and I hate when it gives me too much of melee or ranged.
4. You're talking about the dash, I assume? You primarily use it to cancel knockback effects that you don't arms length. Which doesn't happen at all in this raid tier. The only time you use the dash at all even is when Hesperos uses Kothornos Kick after you soak your tower during Act 3. And even then, it's only 10 gauge, that's just one Sen combo

1. Downtime for melee is referring to anytime you can’t be in melee range hitting the boss this can include things like AOE avoidance which means you aren’t generating kenki then

2. Party buffs are the optimal place to use kenki on shintens, so good Sam players might hold onto kenki for this, you know the resource that apparently is not managed. If you are too overzealous then you can definitely be in a situation where you didn’t leave enough for kaiten

3. I listed AST cards because it’s a party buff that you’ll get between the main party buffs. You can’t plan for it but getting one is a fantastic time to use shintens. Observant sams will take advantage of this to… manage their gauge and optimize their damage. Someone playing in a way to only use shinten in a set way to always have 20 for kaiten at all times won’t be doing as much damage and those who smartly take advantage of buffs and take risks

4. There’s also the escape button. Let’s say you use the back dash to get out of a huge point blank AOE and it’s shortly before your dot, it’s very possible to to dash back in and then realize you don’t have twenty for the higanbana that you’re about to do. Good players will have spent their kenki knowing about this ahead of time and maybe had done one less shinten.

All of these scenarios and decision making we are talking about, even if you think they are easy and you never mess up on this, will no longer be happening after the patch. Saving 20 kenki for kaiten may be easy, but that is because experienced Sam players do it so much it’s second nature, it’s rare to be in that situation where you didn’t use enough, but now that thing you were keeping track, adding engagement to the job, is gone.

[localareanetwork]

1. Downtime for melee is referring to anytime you can’t be in melee range hitting the boss this can include things like AOE avoidance which means you aren’t generating kenki then

2. Party buffs are the optimal place to use kenki shintens, so good Sam players might hold onto kenki for this, you know the resource that apparently is not managed. If you are too overzealous then you can definitely be in a situation where you didn’t leave enough for kaiten

3. I listed AST cards because it’s a party buff that you’ll get between the main party buffs. You can’t plan for it but getting one is a fantastic time to use shintens. Observant sams will take advantage of this to… manage their gauge and optimize their damage. Someone playing in a way to only use shinten in a set way to always have 20 for kaiten at all times won’t be doing as much damage and those who smartly take advantage of buffs and take risks

4. There’s also the escape button. Let’s say you use the back dash to get out of a huge point blank AOE and it’s shortly before your dot, it’s very possible to to dash back in and then realize you don’t have twenty for the higanbana that you’re about to do. Good players will have spent their kenki knowing about this ahead of time and maybe had done one less shinten.

All of these scenarios and decision making we are talking about, even if you think they are easy and you never mess up on this, will no longer be happening after the patch. Saving 20 kenki for kaiten may be easy, but that is because experienced Sam players do it so much it’s second nature, it’s rare to be in that situation where you didn’t use enough, but now that thing you were keeping track, adding engagement to the job, is gone.

There are pretty much no scenarios in the raid tier where you straight up can't hit the boss for longer than a GCD, save Act 4 if you get the purple tether or during Hippo's (not) limit cut if you get screwed over and have to run across the arena (which you absolutely cannot use the backstep in) And in those scenarios you just use Enpi, which has an additional effect for generating a lot of Kenki

Your last point is a good one and something I do for Curtain Call but I feel like you barely ever actually use the backstep for that purpose all that often since complete downtime mechanics haven't really existed in any real fight since E8S.. and if you're going to bring up causal content, you can just use enpi a few times to have more than enough Kenki for movement

[Amh_Wilzuun]

There are pretty much no scenarios in the raid tier where you straight up can't hit the boss for longer than a GCD, save Act 4 if you get the purple tether or during Hippo's (not) limit cut if you get screwed over and have to run across the arena (which you absolutely cannot use the backstep in) And in those scenarios you just use Enpi, which has an additional effect for generating a lot of Kenki

Your last point is a good one and something I do for Curtain Call but I feel like you barely ever actually use the backstep for that purpose all that often since complete downtime mechanics haven't really existed in any real fight since E8S.. and if you're going to bring up causal content, you can just use enpi a few times to have more than enough Kenki for movement

You said earlier that managing kenki was so simple that it can’t even be called management and now you are saying “just have full melee uptime bro lol”. Like what? Is having enough kenki not a matter of skill then still? I’m not saying that fights force you to have downtime but doing the mechs correctly rewards you with uptime… so it’s a matter of skill.

Also the range of content in this game far exceeds just the current raid tier, it could very well be a different story in the next one.

As for movement, not every disengage will last long enough to do multiple enpis or even be worth doing a single enpi over spending 10 kenki to dash back in. Also there might not even be an AOE, there’s plenty of times where the boss can warp somewhere and you burn 10 kenki to gap close. If you greeded shintens before that you very well could not have the kenki needed for your burst phase

[AziraSyuren]

I think the most tragic thing about the Kaiten removal is that it makes Higanbana a lot less interesting. Reapplying that was the only time I ever felt like resource management was even a meaningful mechanic. But now it's just another DoT that's there to give the job more to do. Which is fine! It's not out of place on Samurai like it was a lot of other jobs that got their DoTs axed, and its 60 second duration along with its sen cost basically makes your entire rotation revolve around it. But spending two resources on it actually made it even more unique and now it doesn't have that anymore.

Sad times.